05 Caddy SRX not starting, Part Deaux

infj23

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#1
2005 Cadillac SRX
V6
85K miles

I posted a couple of months ago about my SRX not starting. We went through a bunch of options together. Someone eventually suggested plugs so I changed them and it started right up. The old plugs didn't look all that horrible, so . . . who knows if that was it.

Now, same thing. She cranks fine, but will not catch. Fuel pressure gauge shows pressure key on/engine off at 60, within specs. I pulled #6 plug and it it getting fire, so I have fuel and fire.

I have tried cranking with WOT, but there seems to be not much difference in the sound between cranking WOT and cranking without touching the accelerator.
With key on/engine off, if I step on the accelerator, I think I can hear the throttle plate moving--didn't have anyone handy who could watch it--but the TPS numbers on my scan tool changed when I did it.

No CEL before the problem. Running codes now I have P2119 and P0123. I ran the alldatadiy diagnostic as far as checking the scanner for the TP1 voltage, but my scan tool (Actron CP9580) doesn't show that value, unless it is in secret code.

Hmmm, but what about this coincidence? Last time this happened, I had washed the car, started it for the 3-second drive into the garage, and had the non-start problem a few days later. Same thing this time--washed it, parked it, and three days later she won't catch. Coincidence or something else going on? And no, I didn't not blow soapy water into the air intake (at least not on purpose).

Any ideas? I'm stumped. Multitudes of thanks in advance.

Doc
 

Gus

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#2
Try this:

Idle Learn Procedure from the shop manual;
Description
The engine control module (ECM) learns the idle position of the throttle body to ensure the correct idle operation. Anytime the ECM or the throttle body is replaced, the ECM must learn the idle position. The engine idle may be unstable or a DTC may set if the idle position is not learned.

Conditions for Running the Idle Learn Procedure
• DTCs P0121, P0122, P0123, P0221, P0222, P0223, P0638, P2100, P2101, P2105, P2107, and P2119 are not set.
• The engine speed is less than 40 RPM.
• The vehicle speed is 0 km/h (0 mph).
• The accelerator pedal position is less than 14.9 percent.
• The ignition 1 voltage is more than 10 volts.
• The engine coolant temperature is between 5-85°C (41-185°F).
• The intake air temperature is between 5-60°C (41-140°F).

Idle Learn Procedure
Important: • Ensure the above conditions are met before proceeding with this procedure.
• Do not perform this procedure if a throttle position (TP) sensor or other throttle actuator control (TAC) system DTCs are set other than P2176. The ECM will not perform the idle learn procedure with a DTC set.


Turn OFF the ignition for 30 seconds.
Turn ON the ignition, with the engine OFF for 60 seconds.
Turn OFF the ignition.
Turn ON the ignition, with the engine OFF.
Clear the DTCs with a scan tool.
 

infj23

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#3
Gus,
Thanks for the info, but P2119 is set and I can't idle the car--it won't start.
Clear the codes and try it?

Thanks,

Doc
 
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#4
First thing - STOP washing the vehicle.

Gus the relearn states if P0123 P2119 not set - poster stated both are present. BUT worth a try.

Anything to add - remote starter, known accidents, aftermarket alarm, security light on, recient work OTHER than last issue,

TO get started - look at freeze frame, pending, and then clear.
 

billr

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#5
Does it sound like it has compression? Ordinarily I would recommend a compression check, but you seem savvy enough to tell if it is cranking with no compression. I would disable the fuel pump, so no chance of flooding, then try a few times with carb-cleaner into the intake. If it doesn't fire briefly like that, then move up to starting-fluid. Still no fire? Then get out the timing light and see what cranking timing is, because if it won't fire with compression and one of those primer fuels (and no flooding possible), then you either don't have a good spark, or it isn't at the right time in the engine cycle. Sorry, kev2, if this sound so much like the endless thread by "stryped"!

I understand you didn't blast water into the intake, but do you wash under the hood at all?
 

infj23

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#6
Here's the latest:
I cleared the codes (there was also an ABS code, B0242, in history). I removed the fuel pump fuse and relay and cranked it twice. The engine actually seemed to try to catch on the first try.
I reinstalled the fuel pump fuse and relay and cranked it. It tried to catch again, but just barely. Turned the crank again with WOT and it fired (rough, but fired) for about 3 seconds and died. (So yes, it sounds like there is compression).
I then sprayed in some starting fluid and cranked--no change.
The car has now set code P0123 and that is the only code.

There is an after-market remote start installed. It has been there for a year with no troubles. As soon as this even came up, I flipped the switch to disable the remote start. No accidents, no security light on, no other recent work.

And no, I didn't wash under the hood at all!

Thanks again. Desperate for ideas!

Doc
 
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#7
Are you saying that when you washed the car and started it for the 3 second drive into the garage, the car was not started till 3 days later?
Does it do this everytime you wash your car and put it in the garage, or just after it is left for three days before it is restarted? If it wasn't started after being left in the garage for 3 days , it sound like a humidity problem on a cracked sensor, spark wiring, or something like that.

They have a TSB on those codes for the 2004 cadillac concerning replacing the connector to the throttle position sensor. But they say it doesn't concern the 2005 because it was already replaced. Did they get all of them replaced? I don't Know! I would take a look at it anyway and unplug it and look at the connector to see if anything looks out of place or has humidity in it.
 
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#8
Billr's post "you did not blast water' - checking for TSB's I saw this AIR FILTER cover note. check lower portion as it may not seat

OLD MAN- could you post the TSB - or give number- might have a serial number break

Will add more info time permiting

[attachment deleted during maintenance]
 

billr

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#9
Keep in mind that water on the ground can evaporate so that the vapor rises into the engine compartment, then condense that night when everything gets cold again; especially if the engine (and ground under it) is hot/warm just before the car washing.
 
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#10
the attached TSB says your 05 is not affected BUT the picture of the old vs new style connector will tell for sure

[attachment deleted during maintenance]
 

infj23

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#11
The connector on mine looks like the new one. No problem with the air filter housing--it is locked up like it should be. Something else to check?
 
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#12
Did you check PM?

I have to ask, I am kinda lost, at least until I get my computer progrsms to work, not alot of Cadilliacs in comercial fleets.

What is the temp where you are? Was the vehicle key on -radio? when you washed her?
You followed the ALLDATA trouble tree? My trouuble tree is SHORT kinda like look then replace TB.. not realistic to me.

Confirm NO START - cleared codes - now only p0123?
 

billr

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#13
When that remote-start was installed, were any wires cut? Disabling prevents it from working, but it doesn't splice any cut wires. In fact, even if there are no cuts, the remote-start could still be faulty and taking command of some relay; disabled or not... I don't really think the remote-start is the problem, but it adds one more element to consider.
 

infj23

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#14
Here's the latest:
I did some more of the diagnostic tests on the test chart.
Key on/engine off, the yellow and brown wires (motor controls 1 and 2) measured at 3.1 volts (spec is 2-4): good.
The tan wire, the 5V reference wire, measured at 5V: good.
Attaching a test light to the yellow and brown wires and cycling the ignition on/off repeatedly showed a bright light for a brief moment at key on: good.
The diagnostic then says to check for bad connections or grounds at the throttle body connector--that seems odd because everything there is contained/concealed within the throttle body.
So then I cleared the codes and tried to start it. On the 2nd try, it caught for about 4 seconds. On the third try, it ran--really rough at first, but finally caught. I slowly moved her out of the garage and she ran for about 3 minutes and then stalled. She stalled right about the time I plugged in my scan tool (coincidence?). I then ran the Idle Learn Procedure.
I checked for codes and there were none. I started it again and she fired up like usual and ran smooth. I let the operating temp get up to normal and went for a drive.
She seemed smooth for the most part. Once or twice I felt a little surge. On decelerating, about half the time was smooth and half the time I got a clunk, like she had given up and then kicked back in. Also, punching the accelerator a bit found a brief (1/2 second?) hesitation and then a surge (sometimes with a clunk).
After I got home, I checked for codes again (none). I then re-ran the Idle Learn Procedure (just to be sure--but I don't know if it had any effect because I did not restart it after that).
So things are not perfect, but it ran (and I don't know why).
Thoughts?

Doc


To answer some earlier questions:
The old man: no, the three day rest after a washing is not standard, it just happened that I washed it at the beginning of a long weekend and ended up not going anywhere until the weekend was up. I think in the future if I ever do wash this thing again (maybe not), I'll be sure to start her and let her get to normal temp before shutting her down again.
Kev: no, I didn't run the car radio while washing, so I didn't run down the battery in the process. The temp on wash day was mild, about 60 I think, but it could have been the real warm day we had at about 70. The only thing I couldn't do on the alldata tree was read the TP sensor 1 voltage with a scan tool--I could not find that number on my Actron CP9580.
 
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#15
ok no more p2119, but p0123 is set correct?
lets look at the freeze frame for the 0123 - it should show what voltage was at time of fail..