4L60 seems to slip at high speeds and no reverse forward at start up

Discussion in 'Transmission Forum' started by ivane21, Aug 15, 2016.

  1. nickb2

    nickb2 Wrench. I help when I can

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    Also found a TSB for torque convertor drain back check ball concern.

    TSB # 04-07-30-017B

    However, this is for a 4T65-e. The TSB mentions somewhat your concern. When I go to move it once in a while I jump in start it and put in reverse and nothing. Same with drive. If I put it back into park and wait it will work fine.

    I quote "If the you get a concern of no movement in the morning or after sitting several hours, the cooler check ball should be inspected."

    The TSB states 2004 and prior models have the check ball in the cooler fitting. You have a 1998, so maybe that is what you saw on the net. IDK. So in essence, check ball should be in the fitting. But again, it is for a 4T65-e.

    Screenshot (830).png
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2016
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  2. nickb2

    nickb2 Wrench. I help when I can

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    Maybe BP will confirm or not. He is our guru after all.
     
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  3. bp042665

    bp042665 hunting nut

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    the 1870 code is either the TCC apply valve in the pump but in most cases it the comand valve in the valve body . i have fixed alot of these in my shop by putting a updated valve body on them as for the temp sensor it in in the manifold pressure switch . the no movement after sitting i already adressed that it is converter draining and needs to fill back up
     
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  4. bp042665

    bp042665 hunting nut

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    also with live data you can watch the TCC slip and see if it goes in and then after about a few miles you will see the slip climb up
     
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  5. billr

    billr wrench Staff Member

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    ^^^ +1 on the benefit of using live-data, the above and more!

    Should we be considering the stator rear-bushing, in the pump, here?
     
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  6. ivane21

    ivane21 Full Member

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    Thanks so much for all the help guys. Do I have to remove the pump to access the TCC solenoid?
    Or can I access it from under with the pan off? I see lots of videos and updates for this. I hate taking that tyranny out. If I had a lift and space I would do it. Never on the driveway again...I'd rather pay a shop to do it if the pump needs to be removed.

    Also I have sone scan tool that shows live data. But I'm not sure if you guys are referring to a program such as "all-data" I can access that at the library.

    The label that I added helped a lot and seems to have freed something up... just don't want it to act out in the winter or if I sell it I have to explain to the customer clearly what I think and was wrong.

    "Integrity- what you do when no one else is watching".

    Thanks ks again guys I sure appreciate everything you do here.
     
  7. nickb2

    nickb2 Wrench. I help when I can

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    @BP, would the 4L60-E have a similar convertor drain back check ball valve as found in the 4T65-E? If so, where is it? I tried finding it in some exploded views, could not find it.

    What I am seeing is that the drain back valve would be integral to the TCC lock up solenoid.
    He is a link to an upgraded TCC snout. Wouldn't this valve prevent convertor drainage and maybe also be the source of his trans code? Maybe two birds with one stone. The link I am putting here does not include the electrical portion of the TCC valve. Just the snout with anti drainback valve.

    http://transmissiontechnologies.com/tcc-solenoid-snout-with-anti-drainback-valve.aspx

    Here is a link to a universal TCC with the anti dranback.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/ROSTRA-UPGR...ll-GM-700-R4-4L60-Transmissions-/141659528471
     
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  8. bp042665

    bp042665 hunting nut

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    you can get to the tcc solenoid with the pan off but i believe a updated valve body should fix this but bill did mention the rear stator bushing that can also give a P1870 but you should have shift issues with that . there is no Drain back check ball that i have seen
     
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  9. billr

    billr wrench Staff Member

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    But, but... the OP reports is won't go into forward or reverse at times. Surely that is a "shift issue", isn't it?
     
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  10. nickb2

    nickb2 Wrench. I help when I can

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    Dang it!! I am still stuck on this in my man cave brain.

    Symptoms:

    Delayed transmission engagement of 2 to 8 seconds after startup due to torque converter drainback. The condition is most common after the vehicle has been parked for an extended period.

    Everywhere I check, the TCC solenoid should have a anti drain back. It would be logical for any transmission to have some form of anti drain back, either in the pressure cooler line or somewhere in the valve body, case or tcc snout.


    From my limited trans skills, I find this essential as much as an anti drain back in an engine oil filter. Which purpose is to keep the oil filter full after shut down so that oil prime is not too long since the filter is full. Same logic should apply for the torque convertors.

    If for some reason this 4L60-e does not have one, I would certainly install one if I was experiencing the symptoms described. For lack of a better place, I would install an updated snout with an anti-drain back such as a sunnex one. Or one on the cooler line.

    I think we all agree that this trans is experiencing convertor drain. Kev said so, BP said so, and I certainly think so also.

    My theory is that maybe if the OP swaps out the TCC solenoid with an upgraded version of the TCC solenoid valve, which we know for sure has an anti drain back check ball valve, he may also by the interim solve the P1870. I repeat "MAY", not "most assuredly".

    The upgraded versions I am seeing go for as cheap as 20$ on the net. Those come with a plastic snout which apparently are fragile. But since this truck is for sale, who cares, as long as torque prime is kept it a win situation. Replacement of the TCC sol is a breeze. Alldata gives 1.1hr which includes pan R/R. So half that time is removal and replacement of pan. Resistance of said solenoid should be 21-26 ohms @ room temp.

    They say the plastic snout often breaks or cracks, which could certainly affect the drain back check ball operation. It is after all located in the snout, much like a tire valve stem. http://www.sonnax.com/parts/2507-tcc-solenoid-snout-kit


    Symptoms:
    • Loss of lube oil
    • Overheated converter
    • TCC apply concerns
    Cause:

    The OE plastic solenoid snout cracks where it contacts the plunger valve causing oil leaks, while the PWM TCC signal drainback valve becomes loose or melts and blocks the converter apply valve.

    Correction:
    Replace the broken solenoid snout with an aluminum snout either with or without a built-in anti-drainback valve.

    4L60-E, 4L65-E, 4L70-E
    TCC Solenoid Snout Kit
    Part No.

    77942-02K
    [​IMG]
    • [​IMG]

    • [​IMG]

    • [​IMG]

    • [​IMG]
    PrevNext
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    4L60-E, 4L65-E, 4L70-E
    TCC Solenoid Snout Kit
    Part No. 77942-02K
    • TCC Solenoid Snout with Anti-Drainback Valve
    • O-Ring




    '97-Later PWM units, Built-in Anti-Drainback Valve

    The plastic OE torque converter clutch solenoid snouts are prone to breakage, causing them to leak oil that should be directed to the converter clutch apply valve. Until now, your only option was to replace the entire OE harness or purchase an aftermarket solenoid and splice it into the existing harness. Sonnax offers TCC solenoid snout 77942-02K that eliminates the need for the damage-prone plastic OE drainback valve in for 4L60-E, 4L65-E, 4L70-E ‘97-later PWM units. Sonnax also offers solenoid snout 77942-01K that allows the OE solenoid in '96-earlier 4L60/E units to be rebuilt to better-than-new condition.

    • Anti-drainback TCC solenoid snout eliminates the need for the damage-prone plastic OE drainback valve, eliminating the possibility of burned converters and loss of lube.


     
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  11. nickb2

    nickb2 Wrench. I help when I can

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    Sorry for picture double post, must have double clicked on copy paste function. :oops:

    I realize I may sound harassing, but for that price, I would certainly try it.

    So, now that I finally found a picture of where the OEM drain back valve actually is on these trannys, (see PDF), they say to remove this OEM drainback valve when installing the aluminum snout with drain back IN SNOUT. The kits provides the orifice cup plug.

    Here is another link for a universal TCC with anti bleed valve, which splices into the harness, so no need to remove the whole harness. Again, around 20$

    http://www.transmissionpartsusa.com/4L60E_4L65E_4L70E_TCC_Lockup_Solenoid_p/350-00035391b.htm
     

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    Last edited: Aug 23, 2016
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  12. nickb2

    nickb2 Wrench. I help when I can

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    @BP, my purpose of my harassing post (joke), :p was NOT to one up you. I just for the life of me could not comprehend that there would be no drainback valve.

    I got obsessed with that until I finally found PROOF that it does exist and found its very location. I am goofy that way. When I don't understand something, I obsess. Maybe that's why I am, for what some may call, a good tech. I don't quit until something makes sense.

    Screenshot (842).png
     
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  13. nickb2

    nickb2 Wrench. I help when I can

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    What confused me a bit, it was the 4T65-e which showed the anti drain back valve in the channel plate, such as shown in following snapshot. The 4L60-e and 65-e, 70-e's have them in the pump as shown in picture in above post. They are apparently very prone to melting and breaking, so the solution is to install the TCC sol with a check valve incorporated.

    Here is a PDF on how to replace the TCC solenoid. ACE 0 pdf. My guess is that even if the OE check valve is melted or broken, who cares, the upgraded TCC sol has one in the snout. The universal should take but a few minutes to crimp the wires and only need to remove two bolts, pull out the TCC sol. No need to follow steps of removing the accumulator, However I do think the pressure ctrl sol and TCC PWM sol need to come out for the TCC sol to pass.

    Screenshot (843).png
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Aug 23, 2016
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  14. nickb2

    nickb2 Wrench. I help when I can

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    I can also see the logic of installing a drainback valve in the cooler pressure line.

    See snapshot. One or the other would do the trick in my opinion. Mopar had huge problems with that. The chevy 4T65-e had them in the cooler fittings, so I don't see why not on the 4L60-e that would not do the same job. Anyway, enough of my pondering.

    I think I got my point across more than enough.

    Have a great day.

    Screenshot (844).png
     
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  15. bp042665

    bp042665 hunting nut

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    All good thats why i recommended a updated valve body i have found with the updated valve body the problem goes away also you fix the 1870 code at the same time
     
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