[4T60E] Quad Driver Module B Fault (PWM TCC) After Shoddy Rebuild

grcauto

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#16
If you want to measure the resistance of the solenoid you do it by disconnecting at the trans and measure between B and E and you should get real close to 10 ohms. Sounds like it's open. No matter what i would want to see what they did inside. I would prep my mind for the worse with these bozo's.
 
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#17
Shyte, where did I put my newton hat and ohm's law books?

I think op just wrote he answered his own question. Welcome newbie. Padawan.
Thanks Nick.
Electricity is FUNdamental. Even on 25+ year-old cars like mine, you'll get nowhere without understanding Ohm's Law and Kirchoff's Laws and so forth.
This stuff should be a mandatory part of the high-school curriculum, but that might interfere with Gender Studies and whatnot.
 

grcauto

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#18
I think this says it all, and it's but one of many examples I've found outside the trans. Who knows what's going on inside.
[This is the transaxle connector]
View attachment 10458

The fact that only the three wires to the solenoids were stripped so... well that tells something anyway -- like maybe they knew there was an issue after the so-called rebuild. And yet they still gave me the car back with this issue.

Another example of their utterly incompetent workmanship is, for example, when I got the car back, the hood wouldn't pop. I spent a couple hours figuring out that not only was the under-dash hood release out of its bracket, but the hood pop-up spring was just flat out gone. Either gross negligence or they simply stole it. Also, the PCM was just tossed back up under the dash. No mounting hardware. Who knows where that went or how it was even oriented before. Lots of missing screws in various places. Even one of my steering wheel radio/AC controls was missing. They just didn't give a crap about anything.

The offender: View attachment 10459



The most I've ever done to a trans is replace the mount and fluid cooling line to the radiator. Needless to say, removing the transaxle side cover seems pretty daunting. As for air checks... I have no idea what they are much less how to do them. But, I'm all ears if you want to elaborate.
I would go to them and get my money back. These hacks need to be suited into oblivion. That is utter incompetence. I would take that picture to them and tell them a full refund of your money or a lawyer is next. Actually, I wouldn't even give them the chance to make it right. I would drop a suit on them in a heartbeat. How does this place stay in business?
 
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#19
If you want to measure the resistance of the solenoid you do it by disconnecting at the trans and measure between B and E and you should get real close to 10 ohms. This is very simple stuff. We need to be sure we use the correct terminology. Current (amps) is measured with the circuit connected and power on. Resistance (ohms) which is what you measured is done with circuit disconnected and no power on.
No offense guy, but it's like you're not even reading anything I've written. Nowhere have I confused current with resistance. They are, however, related - and one can be inferred from the other.
I did test continuity (using the ohmmeter) between the B and E pins on the transaxle receptacle. The test indicated an open.
I appreciate everyone's help, and your chiming in... but seriously.. reading comprehension.
 

grcauto

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#20
No offense guy, but it's like you're not even reading anything I've written. Nowhere have I confused current with resistance. They are, however, related - and one can be inferred from the other.
I did test continuity (using the ohmmeter) between the B and E pins on the transaxle receptacle. The test indicated an open.
I appreciate everyone's help, and your chiming in... but seriously.. reading comprehension.
I read it wrong. Edited. Sorry.
 
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#21
I would go to them and get my money back. These hacks need to be suited into oblivion. That is utter incompetence. I would take that picture to them and tell them a full refund of your money or a lawyer is next. Actually, I wouldn't even give them the chance to make it right. I would drop a suit on them in a heartbeat. How does this place stay in business?
I could write several more paragraphs about just how "unprofessional" (the owner who barely speaks English) and his crew of derelict cholos are. But you get the idea.

See, the thing is, I've already had the car back for 11 months now. I know I perhaps gave the impression that I just got it back; but only because I didn't want to drone on about how I've been sort of procrastinating about fixing this for a long time, etc. Anyway, the time to get it fixed is now. I need to get that Service Engine Soon light gone so I can get the car inspected. No more dilly-dallying.

A lot of these issues related to just how crappy of a job they did came to light almost immediately after getting the car back. Some only revealed themselves over time. Some have yet to be discovered, I'm quite sure.

I certainly was tempted to immediately drop it back off there after coming to realize this stuff. It just wasn't really feasible assuming the car would get me a few miles back and forth to where I needed to go until I could try to fix it myself.

If I had other vehicles on standby, money for a lawyer, and so forth... Yeah. I might've taken lots of pics and demanded satisfaction.
 

billr

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#22
I'm not familiar with that specific trans, we will need somebody else to provide details of further testing; but here is an outline.

1) The air-checks probably require removing the valve body and applying compressed air (the usual 90-120 psi) to various passages on the trans case that would be fed by the VB. This will actuate the various clutches and you can listen for both a hefty "clunk" as they operate and for any gushing/ bubbling sound from air blowing past seals. It may even be necessary to post videos of you doing this so the trans experts can comment of the sounds.

2) While the VB is off, and it may be necessary to remove it just to adequately resolve the solenoid issue, you may be able to inspect the VB to see if it includes the Sonnax "Sure Cure" upgrade kit. I think the Sonnax upgrade is necessary for any proper "rebuild", so you may want to replace the VB if it can be confirmed it doesn't include the Sonnax stuff.

3) Before even opening the trans, though, I would find out about how to test for line-pressure. If that can be forced to full pressure, by pulling a fuse or the whole connector to the trans solenoids, it would be nice to verify the pump is OK and can maintain pressure if the VB is OK. If LP can't be maintained, then you will have to go very deep into the trans, regardless of what you find with VB/solenoids. Again, we need a trans expert to confirm the LP can be forced high; we don't want to condemn the pump prematurely!

4) Have you looked online for an overhaul/service manual for that trans? That could help a lot with some of the stuff I don't know. Those type manuals are available for about $25, but are so common they are often posted online for free download.
 
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#23
billr, I was aware that updates/upgrades to the 4T60E are available when I first spoke to the trans shop owner over the phone, and I requested that those parts/kits be used for the rebuild. Whether he fully understood what I said or had any intention of carrying that request out, I don't know.
Knowing what I know now, though, it seems highly unlikely he did anything approaching that level of care.

When I look at the pages and pages of exploded parts diagrams of the transaxle in the FSM, it makes my head spin. Going much deeper than removing the side cover (which does make the solenoid reachable), particularly without another vehicle and without an indoor garage and workbenches... probably not going to happen.

Thanks for explaining that though. If anyone knows of anything I can check with only the side cover off, let me know.

Also, this might sound like a dumb question, but do I have to drop the transmission fluid pan underneath and drain the fluid before removing the side cover? I mean, I think I do... but I figure it's possible that all of the fluid is at the bottom and I perhaps wouldn't have to drain it.

Also, can I reuse the relatively newer gaskets on the side cover and bottom pan upon reinstallation?
 

billr

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#24
I am guessing that you don't need to drain/remove the pan. Yeah, I would try to re-use the gasket for the side cover.

Does the FSM say anything about simple tests you can do for line-pressure?
 

billr

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#26
Note that on page 21 it describes a thermo-valve that allows the fluid to drain down from the side case to the sump when the fluid is cold; so pan probably does not have to come off if you let the trans cool to ambient temp.
 

grcauto

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#27
If the open is internal to the trans.....I don't know how you will fix it without opening it up. That would be a real trick.
 

billr

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#28
I'm thinking the side cover certainly has to come off, but the fluid doesn't have to be drained and the pan doesn't have to come off. Less of a project.
 
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#29
light reading for you
Note that on page 21 it describes a thermo-valve that allows the fluid to drain down from the side case to the sump when the fluid is cold; so pan probably does not have to come off if you let the trans cool to ambient temp.
Thank you guys for that. Super helpful. I still envision a huge red puddle about 10 feet in diameter after I crack that side case though.
It describes a line pressure test on page 15. I don't have a vacuum pump at the moment, but I may end up getting one to do my A/C this summer. If my trans is still not right after all this, I'll try the line pressure test then.

I also have to do my intake gaskets and other related gaskets, which I've already bought (but have been lazy about installing). It's sucking some air and certainly affecting everything else -- such as vacuum to the trans through the modulator. I replaced the collapsed vacuum line yesterday, and while it's definitely slipping a lot less -- there is still some slippage. I'm wondering if I should replace the modulator too. It looks original, and replacements are cheap.

While the trans is now slipping considerably less with the new vacuum line, it's now acting more like it did when I first got it back after the rebuild -- bogging down, not downshifting like it should when I slow down and turn corners. It's like, with a manual trans, when you turn a corner and try to accelerate in 3rd. Giving it more throttle finally causes a downshift. It doesn't happen every time though. Often I'll manually shift to 1 or 2 to avoid the irritation. If I slow down nearly all the way, to say less than 10mph, then it won't happen. It'll smoothly downshift to 1 on its own.

This makes me think the problem is related to the PWM TCC solenoid, like maybe it's stuck on (or is it off? I know it's stuck one way or the other).... anyway, like the TCC is locking up in third and not unlocking when I slow down to ~10-15mph for a turn.

I've got a brand spankin' new AC Delco throttle body with new TPS and MAF that I got super cheap on e-bay that I'll finally install when I'm in there. New ball joints too. This is why I've been dreading this whole thing, and putting it off. It's going to be a massive job by my auto repair standards.
 
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#30
I came across a really cool idea for a temporary "fix" to get the Service Engine Soon light off. [I hope it's not a faux pas to post the link to another forum (just giving credit where it's due) https://www.s10forum.com/forum/f13/...m-function-with-solenoid-modification-552450/]

Basically, where the "rebuilders" shredded my wire insulation at the transaxle connector, I'll throw a resistor across the 12V+ to PWM TCC ground line.
As long as the resistor offers greater resistance than what it's used to (~10 Ohms), then less current will flow and no risk of frying the Quad Driver.

I happen to have a pack of 680 Ohm, 1/2 watt resistors on hand (from when I bypassed PassKey over a decade ago and turned it into a hidden kill switch).

So, 14.4V divided by 680Ω = .021A
14.4V X .021A = .30W

The PCM will detect high and low voltage at the appropriate time, and the light will turn off. Should work out, no?