79 El Camino brake issue pedal goes way down

JP

Hero Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2007
Messages
679
Likes
3
Points
18
#31
Yeah, they sell the coilwrap or stone guard as I've seen it called. It's gone 150K with the original lines; maybe I won't worry about it.
 
Joined
Aug 28, 2007
Messages
4,699
Likes
18
Points
38
#32
Use to sell a double flare coupler for 69 cents, the two male ends and the female coupler, now sold separately, can add up to four bucks. Found it cheaper to purchase a foot long brake line with the male ends installed. Then GM came out with a bubble flare, really stupid, that ball had to be perfect and if you tightened it up just a tad too much, would leak.

ABS made it worse, instead of two lines have four, fuel evaporative systems, three lines instead of one, AT coolant lines that rusted out was another chore.

3/16" is a long time standard, but now calling it 4.75mm, still 3/16", threads on the couplers have not changed, but the nuts are metric, had a set of English tubing wrenches, just enough far off, wouldn't work, so had to purchase a set of metric.

92 DeVille was the last vehicle, what a job with uncoated steel line, fuel, brakes, and AT coolant line were all leaking. Now the motorhome. Buying a roll of 3/16" tubing coiled up is really a major job trying to straightened it out. Guess I am getting too old, but been saying this for the last 60 years.
 

nickb2

Wrench. Diagnostic Tech.
Joined
Nov 22, 2008
Messages
8,833
Likes
153
Points
63
Location
St-Hyacinthe, Quebec, Canada
#33
Where did this debate ever go? Compression fittings.

Fine for me when the job is done right. I hear they are not legal anymore in most states. Why? They work fine up here.

Did canada also pass a law against these adequate for public transport, not so much any more, type deal? Some swayed, compression leaks most, flare leaks most, and yes, flares do, mostly cuz most times a guy does not master the technique of a cheap flaring tool. Patience has always been the mark of a huge fail or win when tackling a rusted out hydraulic tubing situation.

The cold compression fitting will work better also in cold climates, as both the fitting and the line share same dna in metallurgy. With the road salt that quebec dumps, best thing that could happen to northern guy's like us, copper and nickel lines. WAY better on length of death from corrosion. Before, when I first started this trade, seemed all day was flared brake lines and another kit of another herbrand tools 3/16 or 1/4inch double flaring bit/tap . Nowdays, almost never touch the lines.

For some who don't know what it is like to be a northern tech, imagine when you done a job, a good bit of that car is now dust/rust. I shovel more rust in a lifetime than most you think bondo is shyte to clean up.

Most guys who push a tool box to their work stations in northern garages go through toolboxes like crazy. Just the splatter from the cars and trucks rusts out our boxes. We have come to anti rust proof our shyte just like a car.
 
Joined
Aug 28, 2007
Messages
4,699
Likes
18
Points
38
#34
Not sure I would trust compression fittings, made out of brass with up to 1,500 psi of brake pressure. But you sure make a good point about crappy tools, purchased a New Britain in 1962, used it for many years, perfect each time.

Often made the comment, if I didn't have a collection of Made in the USA with drills and taps, can't even drill a hole with this new crap, tip of the bit either gets red hot, or a tad of too much pressure will snap in two.

Bubble flare is a bean counter thing, only takes one step, double flare takes two. oh my God two steps! Most of the rust I have seen is from the outside in, really getting sick of road salt. See all the brake, fuel, and coolant lines on my newer Hyundai Elantra are all coated, maybe they will last a couple of weeks longer.
 

JP

Hero Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2007
Messages
679
Likes
3
Points
18
#35
I'm a little concerned about compression fittings and the psi requirements of the braking system...since I'm doing it myself. I have used compression fittings sans leaks on a fuel line a while ago...yeah, success, but...

Besides, flaring tubing looks like a bit of fun. :)
 

nickb2

Wrench. Diagnostic Tech.
Joined
Nov 22, 2008
Messages
8,833
Likes
153
Points
63
Location
St-Hyacinthe, Quebec, Canada
#36
Well, to get to my mention of debate, I agree the brass ones are NOT to be used in any car application, but the black ones I get at my local guy are completely safe and D.O.T. certified or so my parts guy says as of to day, and he said keep ordering them, everyone else is.

I have used these high compression fittings since they came out. The dorman black ones. We charge the client 10or so $ per fitting. Most guy's who want to keep thier for a long time, I always recommend new lines and flare them myself since finding the right length is always a guess when buy pre flared tubing. Half the time I end up cutting or not having long enought, I just end up flaring anyways. SO I gave up a long time ago and bend my own, flare my own.

But like I said before, just because some ppl think they are not safe cuz some nut job did a bad job and killed a few family members, that out of who knows how millions of cars these thing's are on, that they fail more than what said, nut job, would have done at a lame attempt of a double flare with a mc donalds flaring kit. That is insanely more dangerous that just using a high pressure compression fitting which is basically idiot proof to use if done correctly.

I think you will be hard pressed to see any car on the road that goes any higher than 2 to 3 grand in psi. Unless it is a F1 car, and even that would surprise me if they went past the rated limit of the 5$ black dorman compression fittings. The black ones say they can go 5000psi, way beyond what any car I have ever seen do in my now 28yr career. They also sell nice stainless steel ones too, for passionate ppl that number match their gear and stuff, but the black ones are fine, right by law, and no one can sue you for using an inferior product. Sadly, I did look it up, and these are indeed outlawed in many states, cuz some idiots used walmart hardware store pumber shyte.

Basically, we live in a world that maternalizes the shyte out of us, and then every one says don't breathe the air!!! really!!??

:Do_O:money:

Bet you the air was way less feral and nice smelling then as today than back in the 1500's, when bath time was twice a year. What with all the tanneries and horse dung and dead bodies lying about due to plague, etc and the beginning of industirialization around the corner I am sure the air and water was just way better than anything we have by those standars, and yet we wonder how ppl lived with out anesthesia. Simple, they got wasted enough till they dropped.

I tell you, I am on a mission to not let man become softer than huggies pampers. We have enough with our respective GVNMT's babying us to no end and taxing us for it saying it's better for us to not think for ourselves, they got IT ALL UNDER control. Yeah, I'm just not seeing that big picture yet, and lost faith of any kind a long time ago at fairy tale endings.

High pressure compression fittings should be legal everywhere. But even half the inspectors doing the inspections probably would even know the difference between a high compression fitting and a home depot plumber one. They are just instructed to fail the car/truck if they see one of these there cuz some idiot told him to do so. That is why canada rocks, not so many dumb laws.

But that may spark another useless debate, such as who really needs a semi automatic assault rifle to kill a few deer. I thought a 22 did just fine, unless I want to mow down the entire tribe in one burst of easy x-box shot of how my childhood became such a nightmare I want to be hitler and just eradicate, but doesn't that defeat the purpose of hunting? If you eradicate evrything, what is left to play with when your alone up on that hill. Still going to die a lone. But I guess better geniuses than me thought that Freud and Nicthe were idiots also.

Welcome to a world where ppl just listen to anything some other idiot said.

That is why I love my preferred dictum. Which is a a formal pronouncement from an authoritative source.

An opinion is like an arsehole, everyone has one.









Funny how I like that old joke.
 
Last edited:

billr

wrench
Staff member
Joined
Mar 12, 2007
Messages
6,175
Likes
70
Points
48
#38
I should know better than to get involved in this, but...

There several different kinds of flare fittings, and several different kinds of compression; any generalization of flare vs. compression is meaningless. There are compression fittings rated to 10,000 psi (higher now?); and compression fitting were used in military aircraft (maybe still are).
 
Joined
Aug 28, 2007
Messages
4,699
Likes
18
Points
38
#39
Just checked my local supplier for 3/16" steel double flare couplers, actually call that center female type a union. It's $3.49 for the union, and $3.49 for the two males, call those nuts, with tax, $11.06. Impossible to say replace a line from the ABS clear back to a wheel, so have to use sections, so for just one section, plug the tubing, that's $22.12! Two or more sections, $44.24, times four 177 bucks if you can get by with two sections.

Use to electrically plate pad backing plates, not painted on most I have seen, paint chips off and rust binding the pads. EPA banned plating. About 12 layers in a brake hose, China never learned how to vulcanize these, so buying a check valve. Could rebuild a fuel pump like new again for a buck, POS plastic made in China intank pumps are running in the 250-450 buck price range and a complete PITA to replace. Especially if you try to remove rusted out fittings.

Think they want us to trade in our vehicles for new ones every two years.
 

JP

Hero Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2007
Messages
679
Likes
3
Points
18
#40
Yep, crazy expensive for a couple of brass fittings. Well, I've got the parts and a borrowed flaring kit. Wish me luck...
 

JP

Hero Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2007
Messages
679
Likes
3
Points
18
#43
Aha. Well, it appears that I'm not the first one to have worked on this brake line. As I was looking for a good place to splice it...I found a previous splice/union. The original brake line up to the splice is in good shape for a nearly-40 year old vehicle in Michigan. A little heat, and bingo, the union unscrewed easily. Cut the other end in a good place for a splice but was getting tired and didn't want to rush making a flare. I did practice one on the piece that I removed and it came out perfectly.

Also noticed on the piece that I removed where it had been in contact with the frame and rubbed through to make the hole, as well as noticing the original brake line that had simply been cut off and left in place.

Replaced the wheel cylinder while I was at it, it looked a little damp. Might have been some splash as I was pretty sloppy when I initially tried to bleed the brakes, but for twelve bucks it's worth not worrying about. Was a little concerned about the brake line nut as it looked quite rusty...but a bit of heat, presto-chango, unscrewed easily.

Will get at it again and finish in a couple days...a bit stiff from lying on the cold concrete floor in the garage.

Thanks much for the tip about heat!
 

JP

Hero Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2007
Messages
679
Likes
3
Points
18
#44
Note to self: Benchtop tubing flaring is a different animal than under-the-car-with-barely-enough-clearance-and-s#*@-falling-in-your-face-as-you-lie-on-the-hard-garage-floor-tubing-flaring.

Got it done. Now on to the bleeding and checking for leaks.

IMG_0678.JPG
^"Mr. Frame, I'd like you to meet Mr. brake line. Mr. Brakeline, Mr. Frame"
Mr. Frame: "Let's see who wins when you rub us together."

I decree Mr. Frame the winner.
 

nickb2

Wrench. Diagnostic Tech.
Joined
Nov 22, 2008
Messages
8,833
Likes
153
Points
63
Location
St-Hyacinthe, Quebec, Canada
#45
@jd, I was thinking of your moniker this week.

It only has 6 cylinders...how hard can it be to fix?

Try doing a starter on a L6 BMW, and spark plugs on a H6 tribeca Subaru. BMW gives 2.7hr for the starter, Subaru gives a fat 3hrs for plugs.

Both times I told myself, how hard can that be? I diagnosed both those jobs, my boss then proceeds to give them to a co-worker. Beemer took 6hrs to do for the starter, 5 or so hrs for plugs on the H6. Safe to say, this co-worker hates me at times. He asks me how do I do it, working on these types of cars day in and day out? I say, with alot of patience and passion. Oh, and very nimble hands. ;)

So your comment about bench flaring vs on car flaring with shyte falling in your face, made me laugh.

Happy you got her done.:p