crank no start

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#16
rod428, looks like you got a decent home scanner for a great price!
CP9660
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#17
I realize the weather is horrible in Maryland, so if you put your S-10 problem "on the back burner" I will totally understand. I am a mobile mechanic in Kentucky and I have turned down dozens of jobs in the past week due to rough weather. But this gives me time I need for bookkeeping.

In reply #5, I asked 3 questions about the starter issue. I asked those questions in an order (first, second, third) that made the most sense to me in an effort to determine your problem (or problems) by a process of elimination.

rod428 answered the second question so I will talk about that first.
I asked...How does the starter act if you...Crank the engine with the spark disabled? Rod said..."i did disconnect coil it cranked the same."
I asked that question because I know that cranking problems as described might be caused by a spark occurring at the wrong time (too early, piston is driven down before crank is at top dead center, engine "goes backward", starter takes a beating). If spark is disabled, the spark timing cannot affect cranking.
Rod's answer seems to indicate that spark timing is not the cause for the starter issue. I must add that this does not assure us that the spark timing is correct.

Now I will talk about my first question and explain why I asked it.
"How does the starter act if you...Crank the engine with the key turned off, using jumper wire at starter, starter solenoid, fuse, or starter relay (whichever is easy or available)?"
Cranking the engine in this way eliminates possible problems with spark timing, antitheft systems, ignition switch, lot's of wires and connectors, and neutral safety switch. ( If you jumper at a fuse or relay, power may still have to travel through the neutral safety switch, I'm not sure.)

Having a starter that will reliably crank the motor is such a primary function, it seems logical to me that the starter issue needs to be addressed first. Also, cold weather requires a strong battery.
 

nickb2

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#19
I honestly thought we were going to help this guy, but after one, I don't know.
the starter motor only-SPINS.
I am with Bill on this one, loose the attitude. We are actually just here to help. You don't like it. Google probably;y has other better opinions.

Never forget, opions are like assholes, every one has one.

If I have to get edited, I am still an asshole
 
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#24
thanks guys. no shyte at least one.! ive been an asshole more times than i can count. at least i was able to write this with a good ole country boy in the backround.! lol i got to my truck tonight for the first time since i posted this. so... i havent had a chance to not do what any of youve asked. anything you guys tell me to do, i cant wait to jump on. you're all way ahead of me.
i had time to
1. remove plugs, disconnect spark, crank while recording.
2. plugs back in, crank, record, with no spark.
3. then all back together, cranking, recording. will post with this.

tried the first. 13 second video, it said too large. ill work on posting just the audio
(ive been having a hellovatime with electronics lately)

i was referring to the separate solenoid coils circuit. nick may have touched on its ground problem. most have 2- 3/8" terminals, for the starter motor, and one small bolt-8m nut, for solenoid coils, hot from ignition switch. but i have one with the 2- 3/8, but also 2 small solenoid terminals. it said disregard negative on one wire systems. i dont know enough about it yet, but solenoid has 2 coils. one to pull, and one to hold.? it gets its ground thru the starter motor pos cable..!!?? all this may come in handy if we get that far, after you all hear what its doing.

i do not know, for a fact, the spark is advanced that far, the starter info stated use caution when using this starter on motors that have the crankcase position sensor error code, i believe it was po335, because the computer MAY be advancing the spark up to 50 degrees. and i said that would make sense to me, with it kicking back the way it does. also said it was possible to crack the block. ill still try to find that info

thanks dan i thought i just had a piece of shyte scanner
 

billr

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#25
Use a timing light to check what the cranking advance is; and I would do it for all cylinders. You will have to add some temporary timing marks, using a dab of paint or piece of tape, but they don't have to accurate at all. The difference between 50 deg and 0 deg on the crank pulley is 3" or more.

I can't do it, but is somebody else willing to post the OP's videos? That will probably require sharing private email, but start with PM. I think hearing this starter "kick out" failure is going to be a great help.

In the meanwhile, we are dying of curiousity: did the starter disengage with the plugs out? with plugs in and spark disabled? still do it (disengage) once you put it all back together? Have you tried cranking with the spark enable
 

nickb2

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#26
thanks guys. no shyte at least one.! ive been an asshole more times than i can count. at least i was able to write this with a good ole country boy in the backround.! lol i got to my truck tonight for the first time since i posted this. so... i havent had a chance to not do what any of youve asked. anything you guys tell me to do, i cant wait to jump on. you're all way ahead of me.
Alright, now I can loose my Canadian attitude too, and move forward, kudos. Can't wait for a positive conclusion
 
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#27
have changed to audio
gonna try
no plugs - cranked continously
plugs no spark - cranked second or so released starter motor running
all connected - at times a second or so then released, also times it kicked back

now...
The following error occurred:
The uploaded file does not have an allowed extension.

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF^&%$$@#$%^&**&(*&&^%^#%$^#$%&^*%$#^&^

:confused:
 
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#29
I listened to all three recordings several times.

Cranking with "no plugs" sounded like the cranking speed was not as even (or steady) as I thought it would be. Hard to say why that might be.

Cranking "plugs no spark" sounded like a starter with a bad starter drive that starts slipping after a short amount of cranking. Is that starter "new from the parts store" or "new from the used part yard"?

Cranking "all connected" sounded more like problem with "kickback". My first guesses would be over-advanced timing, or plug wires on wrong, or crossfire in the distributor cap, especially if it is not new and if it is the flat-top style that looks a little bit like a crab. Another possibility would be Distributor installation problem.
 

billr

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#30
Dan (or anybody else), can you convert those .avi files to something that is more "self-playing", like youtube?

What Dan described is kind of what I am suspecting. The spark timing is way off so the engine "kicks back" and damages the sprag-clutch on the starter. The sprag-clutch can no longer transmit full torque to the gear so the engine cranks poorly at best, and quickly goes into "full slip" when the engine resists in later cranking attempts. The difference in static friction and dynamic friction at the sprag-clutch elements is involved here.

Obviously, a fair amount of guessing is involved in the above, so I would like to hear the cranking myself.

PS: we need the timing light to join in here...