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Outlook Acadia Traverse...best way to remove engine

  1. Please fill out the following to ask a question.

    Saturn:
    Outlook:
    2009:
    150000:
    3.6:
    possible timing chain failure! Stalled going 75 on interstate. No restart, when attempting to start you can hear starter but doesn't sound like engines turning over. Anything simple I can check before I pull motor? Without a lift can the engine be removed? I have a cherry picker.....
     
  2. engine stalls will not restart= needs engine?

    IDK did you test ANYTHING - compression, valve operation, Even a spark check , remove the valve covers AKA cam covers

    chains do not often fail (catastrophic) but with 3 chains IDK - a code might be there for offset/correlation issue if a chain or tensioner went.
     
  3. Please clarify: you can hear the starter turning (whining/whirring) but the engine doesn't crank at all? Have you tried turning the engine by hand, to see if it can rotate at all. Yeah, I am kind of surprised like kev... you are a long way from knowing the engine has to be yanked out.
     
  4. Front wheel drive. My guess drop the engine cradle out the bottom
     
  5. Idea, tachometer, rpm/sensor data. And all of the above listed items such as compression.
     
  6. Now to get on with some serious questions, is this not an interference engine? I can't reliably say so, but I think it is not. Actually, I think it is not since I am looking at TSB's due to this very known issue, and I have done quite a few myself, but not ready to put my hand in the fire on that one. So it is paramount to know if the valve train failed before pulling the engine.

    There are three chains in this engine, if one of the tensioners failed, maybe the valve train is ok and the VVT is just out of whack. Known issue causing a low compression issue. First, pull the front cover off, not a easy task, but better than pulling that engine with only a cherry picker.

    So the secret word here is VVT. Often, with GM engines of this type, I have encountered what sounds like a non compression engine when it is only the VVT system that is out of sync due to a very known issue of timing chain premature wear.

    So that is not something you want to overlook when maybe your only looking at 500$ timing chain kit.

    No way you are going to pull that engine out of the top, as Lynn here wrote above, cradle needs to come down. The rest is easy as pie if you have a lift. The timing chains can be done in place in about 1 and a half days labor. Dropping the cradle is less time consuming but not easy in your driveway with the limited tooling you have described.

    So to repeat myself, three chains, one primary, and two secondary. So before condemning the engine, pull the front cover, acertain damage there first before spending 2 grand on a used engine that probably already has a worn chain kit in there.

    You may be surprised to find that just a timing chain kit is all you need. :D For the rest, very reliable engines that are worth some minimal investment.

    The primary chain guide is usually the culprit sending the other two secondary chains out of whack.

    So look to that first before anything else.

    Oh forgot to mention the obvious, when you have your GF/wife crank the engine, does the crank balancer turn also? If so, that rules out a whole other mess. Basics first, as Billr and a few others here, and myself also like to say.

    Don't overthink this and dive hard earned money into a simple problem.
     
  7. Thanks everyone for the input! When you attempt to start, the crankshaft does visably rotate, but you can tell by the sound that there is no compression. Is there a checklist somewhere of all the components that must be removed or disconnected prior to dropping the engine?
     
  8. Yes there is, but have you ascertained that the valve train is bent. Taking compression reading would to know if a chain broke or a guide went south. See ace 0 pdf, good luck in your drive way without proper tooling. But I must repeat myself, are you sure the engine is toast? If so, how did you go about checking that other than just by sound?
     
  9. Don't really know its toast, but at a minimum the timing set needs attention. I've seen the timing layout that lies beneath the timing cover, and I just assumed the best approach for service is to remove it. While out I could service other items that would be easily accessible.
     
  10. I describe the sound an engine makes when cranking with the timing dropped or out of whack, as the sound of an engine cranking with no spark plugs in it. The difference is the normal sound has a pulsation to it and the no-compression sound is steady. My quick search seems to show that high performance 3.6 as Interference, but not 3.6 as used in SUV's. That said, I was taught that non-int can become int if carbon builds up in the relief notches on the piston tops. So I wouldn't crank it a lot till I learned if timing had dropped. Timing Kit seems to be Part 12651450 for under $200 from online sources.
     
  11. I'm certain that the cams aren't rotating with the crank. As soon as I get a day off I'm going to pull the timing cover off with engine in vehicle. It's tight in there but I believe doable. I'll report my findings. Thanks
     
  12. I am going to go into an anecdote here that may stress the importance of checking basics before jumping to conclusions.

    If some of what I write sounds condescending or opinionated towards others, it is just because I have to deal with poor troubleshooting from others because I am a so called specialist that calls for me to second guess others when they jump to conclusions.

    So here is what I may call a case study/anecdote for this thread.

    Last week, a car came to the shop on a flat bed. It was a no start and my boss gave me what was supposed to be a simple diagnosis from another co-worker a second guesing as he was not sure the engine was toast, and this became a nightmare for me because I now had to defend the hypothesis of my boss to a co-worker who was hell bent on saying the engine was shot but at the same time defend his honor and teach him at the same time. Not a fun thing to do when faced with a co-worker who does not have a full understanding of VVT systems but has basic understanding of what is a 4 stroke engine.

    Anyway, I will try to keep this long story short. The car turned over just like a car with no compression. He says he checked to see if the timing chain is turning the cam, it is. His conclusion was simple and brief. The chain was out of whack for some reason, compression zero on all cyl, and the head probably had bent valves and the pistons may have cracked tops. So in his mind, it needed a new engine. I asked him if he had checked for codes with the scanner first. He stated he had not. I then asked him "what is that clicking sound when you turn the key on?".

    He said it what probably a purge solenoid. Really? A purge solenoid clicking away like that for no reason when not in purge mode. I said "why don't we put the scanner on there and see."

    So I proceeded to do so and found a nice little code niche in there. A whole bunch of codes to wade through. Two of which struck me as very confusing to be with a non compressing engine. One was for a low battery, other was for a intake cam solenoid performance. I tested the battery, it was very drained and would not withstand any kind of load test. SO i put in a service battery to continue my service bay tests. Now that solenoid is no longer clicking away like mad all day long every time I put the key on. Just for a brief instant is is clicking, then it would subside. Still not good. My thoughts are now going in very different train of thought than a toast engine. If when cranking, oil is going to a what it thinks is a faulty cam solenoid, the cam is now retarding itself, giving false compression readings as it is full open, closed, open, closed in a very fast duty cycle way. No wonder my co-worker with limited electrical knowledge thought the chain had jumped for some reason.



    It was not a purge solenoid as my co-worker said, but the intake solenoid energizing like a bat out of hell. As I always do in a situation like this, I suspect bad engine grounds that may need some scrubbing. SO I proceed to do that. Clicking immediately goes away, I turn the engine over, and it fires right up and purrs like a kitten.

    Breif story, the engine was fine, the codes told the whole story. There was a lack of a diagnostic stream here. First thing the co worker should have done was to see the battery posts were oxidized to the max. That would have been a hint right there. The minute I put in a new battery, it fired right up. That is why I cleaned the engine grounds, to give a good path way to the cam solenoids to energize the CVT system.

    Many would have put a new intake cam solenoid in there, or even would have lost hours pin testing that to the ecm to no avail. At one point during my brief stint on this car, I could even hear and feel the exhaust cam solenoid clicking away also once I disconnected the intake cam solenoid. The ecm was on the fritz due to bad grounds and a bad battery. That is it. No busted engine here.
     
  13. So my conclusion here is to Teehee,

    I think pulling that front cover is the best way to go. This is a very known issue on the engines. It is even recommended that of for some reason a engine replacement is necessary, a new timing kit is a must since they fail so much. Think of this a putting in a used 100000km+ timing belt engine without putting in a new timing belt and water pump. No one in their right mind would not invest in a new timing belt kit(which normally includes the water pump if the right kit is bought) before putting that engine back in there, just to have those items fail in a few thousand clicks due to that oversight.

    I think you may find that you just may need a timing kit as I wrote before, before replacing a very healthy engine for nothing. BTW, we still haven't got those comp readings yet. Were they taken?


    Thx JD, that somewhat confirms also what I think and wrote in a previous post, it is not a interference. But as you wrote, nothing is impossible.

    That is why it is imperative to put those timing marks back to specs and then take compression again. No hurt there as nothing can be broken and will only ascertain if the cylinders have enough compression to fire the engine and will confirm that all that is needed is a timing kit.
     

  14. I may have said this would not be easy, but if you do have any way of just leaving the powertrain on the cradle and hoisting the body, you could do that in just a few hours.

    You were right in assuming it would be easier and best approach for service. But as I said before, I am just not picturing this with just a cherry picker. :eek::giveup:
     
  15. I realize that removing all that is needed to get that front cover off is a horrendous task in place. It is doable but your knuckles will hurt for days.

    Is there any way you could rent a fork lift or get a good friend you know who has one to come help. Cuz if its a budget that is keeping you from going fast on this car, you may find that just one day in a driveway will turn into two or three, and you still won't have that front cover off.

    Anyways, I am out of this thread for now, I will jump in here once in a while to give my useless $.02;)
     
  16. Lol it can be done with a cherry picker, as bad as I hate to admit it I have pulled off this horrendous feat. Expect a good week at it! You will need a heavy duty base with wheels to set the engine cradle on as you lift body off. Its really not easy, if you aren't turning wrenches on the regular you probably won't want to do this. It CAN be done but I would recommend doing as nickb2 said and just fight the front cover. Either way its gonna really test your patience. Good luck and use extreme caution if you decide dropping cradle is your best way!
     
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  19. Met a guy who was a body shop mechanic at a Buick dealer. His job was to remove the Powertrain so the shop could work on Unibody damage. Said he could have the engine/transaxle/crossmember out in 45 minutes. Of course he had experience and the shop had dollies for the engine cradle and for the body. Anyhow, at which point I asked if he'd like to hire out to replace the camshaft in a Century we had. He declined, said he had enough wrenching at work. So I developed my own plan:

    Somehow, I'd learned it went from Awful to Easy, replacing the steering rack in that Century, by lowering the rear end of the Cradle. In other words, loosened front cradle bolts and removed the rear ones. So for the camshaft, I raised the car, removed the passenger side strut, loosened driver side cradle and removed passenger side bolts. Able to drop that side (front of engine) to give me good access to Timing Cover and clearance to pull the Camshaft out. I realize I was not trying to get to the tops of the heads or even farther up, like an OHC engine requires. Still, thought I'd mention this and let you decide if it helps.
     
  20. I didn’t give up, just had to park it until holidays were over! I just dropped the motor today and thought I’d share some pics with everyone here. Boy oh boy!
     
  21. Do I even bother attempting to repair? How likely is it that I have bent valves and damaged crank bearings? I found a 60k motor for $1000, kinda leaning t
     
  22. I see heavy imprint of valves on pistons, broken rockers, broken camshaft bearing caps. I would think that the valves got shoved so hard into the rockers that the cam bearing caps broke. That engine is totaled. Do NOT try to fix it.
     
  23. You have very good eyes! Yes major carnage. I found a replacement engine from an 08 Cadillac CTS with low miles, but has a rod knock...,it’s super cheap, should I at least look at it? New bearings? Maybe new chain and water pump
     
  24. It would have to be free before I would want to dig into it and possibly discover major problems that would make it unusable like the one you took out.
     
  25. I’ve never bought a used engine before....seems kinda like a crapshoot not really knowing what you have until it’s installed and you turn the key. Salvage yards are asking $2,000+ for these engines, sure they have a 30-90 day warranty, but that’s little consolation to me if it fails prematurely and I’m the one pulling it out to return it. What’s the best way to check out a used engine to have an idea of its internal condition?
     
  26. If the starter bolts to the engine, you can attach starter, cables and battery to do a compression test.

    It there is oil leakage at oil pan or valve cover(s), open that up to have a look, because you will want a new gasket on there anyway.

    A bigger gamble would involve doing all that timing chain stuff on an unknown engine, especially if you have never done a complex timing chain job and don't have special tools that may be required.
     
  27. Is the Caddy engine identical to what you have in the Saturn? If you are wondering about transplanting a non-identical engine/trans, that is never practical. Both your engine (and the Caddy) could be saved, the question is cost.

    If you have the time, I suggest complete disassembly of the existing engine to further evaluate it. That may involve some expense, like to check the connecting rods for alignment, check the crank, check the block/heads for cracks; things like that. Obviously, saving the old engine will require some services of a good machine shop; for inspections if nothing else.

    Personally, I would rather put $2000 into doing a good rebuild of the existing engine. However, that $2000 for a JY one seems kind of high. Shop around some if you want to go the JY route.
     
  28. Well here’s where I am now...I found a 2011 Camaro engine, same 3.6 LLT, with 90k on it for $130!!! There’s a catch...it has similar issues as my motor, however in much better overall condition with 60k less miles. So... my plan is to go through this motor and do as much of a rebuild as I can. This way I know what I have with little left to chance. I did find a good running engine with 105k on it for $650, but even then, given the timing chain issues of these engines, I wouldn’t feel extremely confident in the longevity of it without opening it up and doing the chain. Am I worrying too much? I really need opinions!!! Also, what’s a good source for technical data when rebuilding these LLT high feature 3.6 engines?
     
  29. I'll give away my age. Back in the 1970 engine swapping days, we found that engines of the same brand, year, displacement...Mounted Differently. Be sure whatever motor mount pads/bosses are needed to install into the Traverse, are in fact on the engine out of the Camaro. Back in "The Day" the required mountings for one model might not be on an engine out of another. I don't know if that's being done lately. Can't hurt to check.

    I have the feeling our professional techs don't want you trying to rebuild the engine you pulled, thinking the block itself might have been damaged when the pistons and valves collided.
     
  30. my only experience similar to this was with a 2005 Chevy Aveo...interferance engine, belt broke and bent all 16 valves to a certain degree. I installed a remanufactured head and new timing set and all was good. I never even looked at the bottom end...maybe I just got lucky? I put another 80K miles on it before selling the car. So I guess in my current situation I have exhaust valves bent on on head, so I can't imagine that the damage would be anymore extensive than that of the Aveo. I do plan on inspecting the lower end for obvious problems.
     
  31. It looks like that 3.6 LLT engine was used in quite a few different vehicles, including that Caddy. I wouldn't be too concerned about differences from what is on yours, GM was always pretty good about keeping things the same; especially where a later engine (model year) is being used in place of an older one. I think in this case, though, the "LLT" distinguishes this particular variant of that engine line; all should be the same.
     
  32. I have the two engines side by side and everything looks the same except for bolt on accesories that need to be swapped over.
     
  33. Glad my concern doesn't appear to be real. By the way, the pic showing the Traverse body looks good. A vehicle worth fixing if you don't have to pay commercial labor rates!
     
  34. Yes, it’s a pretty decent vehicle all around, definitely worth saving. Of course if I had to take this somewhere for repair it would probably cost more than half of the vehicles value.
    Any suggestions on factory rebuild manual? I found some online for $300 a set, but that’s a lot of money to use one time. Would a Haynes manual be sufficient? I can afford $20, lol
     
  35. Haynes seems to be "least respected" from what I have heard. How about a subscription to Alldata? Most engine rebuilding is common-sense coupled with consulting a good machine shop.
     
  36. All I need is torque specs and clearances....the rest is common sense