Running Backwards

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#1
Hello Anyone; Help!

I own a 1998, Chev pickup, 4x4, 305 V8, 5. 0 liter engine.
I have a wideband air fuel ratio gauge installed in one
of the header pipes. The truck also runs with an MSD-6
and and MSD timing box. When I go up a hill, the air fuel
ratio gauge says the truck is running lean; when I go
down a hill, the truck runs rich. I think this is backwards.
The truck chokes and sputters when it goes up a hill;
usually running 15. 5 to one or leaner. This is destroying
my mileage and the truck loses power.

Does anyone know why the air fuel ratio should be
leaner when going up a hill?? How do I reverse
this condition?

Sincerely yours,
RichLean
 
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#2
Take off all modified crap and add ons and pitch it in the trash can.
What is the MSD and MSD-6 stuff and header pipe stuff?
What does a good engine capable scanner reading say about it?
 
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#3
OBD II! Even changing from the stock exhaust manifolds can really screw things up as well as guys that tried to port the intake manifolds. Sounds like you spent a lot of bucks and read claims of more horsepower, better performance, and increased fuel economy, but went backwards, so typical since the FTC was killed by Reagan, if you want your money back, hire an attorney if those companies won't budge.

Love CD ignition, built my own for my 65 Buick, but if you disturbed the GM module that talks back to the PCM and sounds like you did, again you went backwards. And more spark at higher RPM in a 305 V-8, who are they kidding? No such thing as high rpm in a 305 V-8 and we certainly aren't talking 18,000 rpm in a modified motorcycle engine.

Return yours to stock, really haven't heard of guys getting hit with a $25,000 fine for modifying an OBD II system, but that law is on the books, plus it ain't working for you.

Yes, hitting the gas knocks you out of closed loop mode into secondary and you should run a tad richer under load, coasting downhill can completely cut the injectors off for a very lean mixture. How to you fix that? Return it back to stock and that includes the headers.
 
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#4
Oh, if you want fun, buy a 57 Chevy with a 283 in it, now that is an engine you can do a lot with. But still can only drive 55 mph, wife was stopped last night by the cops for doing 23 in a 20, but they let her go since she was on an emergency call at that hospital. Thanks to Homeland Security, doubled the size of our police force with nothing else to do except hand out traffic tickets.
 
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#5
NIckD .... ??? your are rambeling. the wife getting stopped has you pissed?

Richlean
If gas milage was a concern WHY put all those modifications?? ....
Anyway.....some queations to gwt more info
Is the A/F gauge before or after the Cat?
Let us know is the SES light on?
Do you also have a K&N set up, any other mod's-??


Best and easiest advice for dependability, longevity, hassle free ....follow crunch's advice .
 

autodr

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#6
Put it back to stock. GM spent a lot of money in R&D to figure out how to get a balance of best fuel economy and power when the vehicle is used in the majority of street uses by the majority of drivers, regardless of what those meat heads who sold you that junk claim. Companies like that thrive on people looking for something to stick on there car and make it run better. Those days once existed, but they are over, and have been for some time. The best you can hope to achieve with that add-on stuff is what the factory stuff already gave you.... unless you are planning on not running it on the street anymore and only drag races will that stuff help, then it's an all or nothing situation... modify everything, or modify nothing.
 
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#7
GM and others going through a lot of red tape to get their vehicles approved by the EPA is more like it. No Kev2, her getting stopped didn't tee me off, thought that was funny, what does concern me however, is the number of freedoms we have lost in the last 36 years and mostly in the last five years. Use to be fun to modify a vehicle. If RichLean is involved in an accident with those mods, he will also learn he won't have a dimes worth of coverage. And that's whether if that accident is his fault or not.
 
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#8
Still Running Backwards

Hello NickD and kev2;

Well, I asked for advice and got it;
I thank you all for your comments;
to answer your question, kev2;
the A/F ratio gauge is before the
cat; and no, the engine trouble lite
comes on, but I can kill it with my
ScanGauge, and then the light does
not come back on. The engine runs
in open loop continuously, but I
previously got over 19 with it
running this way.

Today I learned that by disconnecting
one O2 sensor it may confuse the PCM
and that's why it riches up and leans
down opposite to what it should;

I wish to ask NickD one question;
yes I did have to move the GM spark
module that talks to the PCM and the
coil because of mounting problems;
why does simply rebolting the module
somewhere else hinder spark operation;
I get plenty of hi power spark because
the coil is an MSD made for propane systems.
The module is well heat sinked and
securely fastened and grounded.

I do appreciate what you have told me;
but what's done is done. Someday I
will find out why I once got "great" mileage
with these mods, and then it trickled off.
I suspect it has something to do with the
ethanol we are forced to use.

Very thankfully yours,
RichLean
 
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#9
As opposed to the old HEI with on board centrifugal and vacuum advance, these newer ones depend on essentially the same sensors with the PCM doing the thinking and controlling that module. If the PCM fails, that module goes into limp mode, so really don't know what you are doing by eliminating it. Least I assume you have HEI, with my company in China no longer have access to the professional alldata.com that spoiled me for years.

I hate ethanol with a passion and wonder why the automotive industry is keeping quiet on this fuel, if not plastic parts melting, major corrosion in key fuel system parts, and always had major problems with detonation, alcohol and gas does not mix. Finding more and more stations that still sell real gas, but have to pay extra for it and ethanol is government subsidized, gas is not, but getting a good payback in much better fuel economy. As long as we have idiots running this country, we will have to pay the price. Actually they are not idiots, we are, they are on the receiving end and we are on the giving end.
 

ironhead

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#10
Richlean, Am I understanding you correctly? Did you disconnect one of the O2 sensors? Why, to connect your mixture guage?. THe PCM uses the O2 sensors to determine the correct amount of fuel to inject to keep the ratio right. Without that info, the PCM goes into failure mode and guesses at the amount of fuel needed. This will almost always be too much when under light load and too little under heavy load. What is the code when the Check Engine light comes on? I would assume it is an O2 sensor code? THat is the computers way of telling you that something is wrong. The moving of your original ignition module will not cause any problems, but interuppting any of the signals into or out of it will through the PCM into all kinds of fits. It expects to see a given engine response for a particular command. If it doesn`t see that response, it again goes into failure mode. You really need to get all that aftermarket stuff off of there, if only to make diagnosing problems possible. If anything goes bad in that system, there is no way to accurately diagnose it with any aftermarket electronics tied in.
Guy
 
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#11
:
To: NickD; kev2, Ironhead;

Thank you gentlemen, your advice is welcome;
I value what you say and am impressed by
your advice. Since all of you are coming from
a "stock" thinking background, I can understand
why you would be inclined to tell me to return
the vehicle to stock and leave the aftermarket
stuff in the trash.

But I have an opinion, and for those who
are suffering from the current obscenity of
gas prices, let me say this;

I am convinced that REAL increases in gas
mileage are POSSIBLE, OBTAINABLE, and
even NECESSARY if ordinary individuals
are to survive and drive if gas prices go
any higher, say to $4. 50 or so a gallon;
which will happen if we have another
Mideast War. The oil companies simply
do not care what Americans pay for gas,
they have already made billions and are
all filthy rich, even if we run out of oil
tomorrow. NickD has already agreed with
me on the subject of ethanol.

You gentlemen have helped me a lot;
I will focus on a piece of your advice;
and I will use a bit of your information
you have given me; but I will not discard
my aftermarket stuff for FOUR solid reasons;


One, I KNOW that for a period of time, my
truck with these aftermarket mods, got
absolutely tremendous mileage; I proved
it beyond doubt, speculation, or argument,
and the truck can and will do it again;
I will figure this thing out;

TWO, the mere existence of ethanol in gas,
which costs less to make than regular gasoline,
and the published accounts of EXXON and others
making unheard of BILLIONS in quarter profits.
cements my thinking that there is a conspiracy
in this country to hold automotive mileage down;
suppress information on how to increase
mileage, and repress those who buck the system;

Three, I can prove that there is an engineered
conspiracy to repress good gas mileage;
HERE'S PROOF;
In 1971 I owned a K-10 Chev pickup;
In those days, if you wanted to use the
defroster, as on a snowy day, you simply
moved a lever, and it pushed a flap in the heater
box to divert air from the fan to the windshield;
you could push this lever and it would divert
a small amount of air to the windshield even
if the fan was off, if the truck was moving;
NO ENERGY LOSS;

Nowadays, on my truck, IF I want to engage
the defroster, it has a knob for partial flow to
the windshield and the floor at the same time,
or turn the knob fully to the defroster only position;
but when that knob is energized;

The air compressor is forced on, and a pushed
volume of air is diverted to the windshield;
BUT INSTEAD OF JUST PUSHING A LEVER,
THIS ROBS ABOUT 20 HORSE FROM THE ENGINE!!!!

THIS WASTES APPROX 20 HP FOR NOTHING!!!!

Four, I protest that you gentlemen, for all your
accumulated knowledge, which is considerable,
I admit; seem to overlook some physical facts;

You claim that "all that aftermarket stuff" is crap;
may I say that at a major car show I went to;
there were thousands of very nice, very shiny cars
there, all fixed up, some were racers,
others were simply beautifully restored
vehicles, and almost without exception, many, many
of them had at least one aftermarket item which I put
on my truck FIRST; an MSD multi-spark CD ignition.
MSD is the leader in this market and for good reason;
so many racers use it, and win with it, why is is junk?
Even non-racers at the shows use MSD. So at least
one part of my aftermarket stuff is not trash.

Now, I admit, I am a mileage fanatic; I am
firmly convicted to increase mileage
to the max I can without undue harm
to the environment, or increasing smog levels, but;

I claim that a larger spark, with more amperage,
will increase the burn potential of the cylinder;
because it increases the thermal energy according
to the Carnot cycle, and all other things equal,
and I have proved this on tank to tank mileage
runs on my truck; Jacobs ignition also put out
test results; which verified the same thing;

The stock ignition coil on my Chev is rated at
up to about 25K volts and 200 milliamps max;
the coil I use delivers 45K and 450
milliamps. Now I know the voltage, by itself
is meaningless unless the plug needs higher
voltage to cross the gap, but I am NOT running
stock plugs, gentlemen.

So, how can a spark with more energy and double
the amperage be a bad thing for economy???
I have also eliminated the side and bottom shadow
effect of stock plugs.

I apologize for this being so long, I can provide
the Jacobs fact sheet if anyone wishes,
it's very interesting. Thank you gentlemen.

Sincerely yours,
RichLean
 
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#12
you said

staying open loop.............
Also something about an SES light and you killing it??
pooor A/F ratio during WOT...?
You did not answer about K&N....
A thought -I will check the logic but maybe EGR is cause if lean decell reading

Scan for codes, check your freeze frames....might be some info there to help...even if ses is off...

Check your fuel pressure and if applicable a simple suggestion change fuel filter

DId you change T'stat to a lower temp ....
 
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#13
Just want to point out, The MSD box is 50 state approved. Since all it does is multiply the spark voltage to the plugs. And a gauge is certainly not illegal. So these two items have not violated any laws or forum rules that I know of.
 
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#14
http://www.epa.gov/air/caa/title2.html#iia

http://www.epa.gov/air/caa/


http://www.epa.gov/air/caa/caa203.txt



http://www.epa.gov/air/caa/caa205.txt

http://www.epa.gov/air/caa/caa203.txt


Sec. 203. (a) The following acts and the causing thereof are
prohibited-
(1) in the case of a manufacturer of new motor vehicles or
new motor vehicle engines for distribution in commerce, the
sale, or the offering for sale, or the introduction, or
delivery for introduction, into commerce, or (in the case of
any person, except as provided by regulation of the Adminis-
trator), the importation into the United States, of any new
motor vehicle or new motor vehicle engine, manufactured
after the effective date of regulations under this part
which are applicable to such vehicle or engine unless such
vehicle or engine is covered by a certificate of conformity
issued (and in effect) under regulations prescribed under
this part or part C in the case of clean-fuel vehicles
(except as provided in subsection (b));
(2)(A) for any person to fail or refuse to permit access
to or copying of records or to fail to make reports or
provide information required under section 208;
(B) for any person to fail or refuse to permit entry,
testing or inspection authorized under section 206(c) or
section 208;
(C) for any person to fail or refuse to perform tests, or
have tests performed as required under section 208;
(D) for any manufacturer to fail to make information
available as provided by regulation under section 202(m)(5);
(3)(A) for any person to remove or render inoperative any
device or element of design installed on or in a motor
vehicle or motor vehicle engine in compliance with regula-
tions under this title prior to its sale and delivery to the
ultimate purchaser, or for any person knowingly to remove or
render inoperative any such device or element of design
after such sale and delivery to the ultimate purchaser; or
(B) for any person to manufacture or sell, or offer to
sell, or install, any part or component intended for use
with, or as part of, any motor vehicle or motor vehicle
engine, where a principal effect of the part or component is
to bypass, defeat, or render inoperative any device or
element of design installed on or in a motor vehicle or
motor vehicle engine in compliance with regulations under
this title, and where the person knows or should know that
such part or component is being offered for sale or
installed for such use or put to such use; or
(4) for any manufacturer of a new motor vehicle or new
motor vehicle engine subject to standards prescribed under
section 202 or Part C-
(A) to sell or lease any such vehicle or engine
unless such manufacturer has complied with (i) the
requirements of section 207 (a) and (b) with respect to
such vehicle or engine, and unless a label or tag is
affixed to such vehicle or engine in accordance with
section 207(c)(3), or (ii) the corresponding
requirements of part C in the case of clean fuel
vehicles unless the manufacturer has complied with the
corresponding requirements of part C
(B) to fail or refuse to comply with the requirements
of section 207 (c) or (e), or the corresponding
requirements of part C in the case of clean fuel
vehicles
(C) except as provided in subsection (c)(3) of
section 207 and the corresponding requirements of part
C in the case of clean fuel vehicles, to provide
directly or indirectly in any communication to the
ultimate purchaser or any subsequent purchaser that the
coverage of any warranty under this Act is conditioned
upon use of any part, component, or system manufactured
by such manufacturer or any person acting for such
manufacturer or under his control, or conditioned upon
service performed by any such person, or
(D) to fail or refuse to comply with the terms and
conditions of the warranty under section 207 (a) or (b)
or the corresponding requirements of part C in the case
of clean fuel vehicles with respect to any vehicle; or
(5) for any person to violate section 218, 219, or part C
of this title or any regulations under section 218, 219, or
part C.
No action with respect to any element of design referred to in
paragraph (3) (including any adjustment or alteration of such
element) shall be treated as a prohibited act under such
paragraph (3) if such action is in accordance with section 215.
Nothing in paragraph (3) shall be construed to require the use
ofmanufacturer parts in maintaining or repairing any motor
vehicle or motor vehicle engine. For the purposes of the
preceding sentence, the term "manufacturer parts" means, with
respect to a motor vehicle engine, parts produced or sold by the
manufacturer of the motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine. No
action with respect to any device or element of design referred
to in paragraph (3) shall be treated as a prohibited act under
that paragraph if (i) the action is for the purpose of repair or
replacement of the device or element, or is a necessary and
temporary procedure to repair or replace any other item and the
device or element is replaced upon completion of the procedure,
and (ii) such action thereafter results in the proper functioning
of the device or element referred to in paragraph (3). No action
with respect to any device or element of design referred to in
paragraph (3) shall be treated as a prohibited act under that
paragraph if the action is for the purpose of a conversion of a
motor vehicle for use of a clean alternative fuel (as defined in
this title) and if such vehicle complies with the applicable
standard under section 202 when operating on such fuel, and if in
the case of a clean alternative fuel vehicle (as defined by rule
by the Administrator), the device or element is replaced upon
completion of the conversion procedure and such action results in
proper functioning of the device or element when the motor
vehicle operates on conventional fuel.
(b)(1) The Administrator may exempt any new motor vehicle or
new motor vehicle engine from subsection (a), upon such terms and
conditions as he may find necessary for the purpose of research,
investigations, studies, demonstrations, or training, or for
reasons of national security.
(2) A new motor vehicle or new motor vehicle engine offered for
importation or imported by any person in violation of subsection
(a) shall be refused admission into the United States, but the
Secretary of the Treasury and the Administrator may, by joint
regulation, provide for deferring final determination as to
admission and authorizing the delivery of such a motor vehicle or
engine offered for import to the owner or consignee thereof upon
such terms and conditions (including the furnishing of a bond) as
may appear to them appropriate to insure that any such motor
vehicle or engine will be brought into conformity with the
standards, requirements, and limitations applicable to it under
this part. The Secretary of the Treasury shall, if a motor
vehicle or engine is finally refused admission under this
paragraph, cause disposition thereof in accordance with the
customs laws unless it is exported, under regulations prescribed
by such Secretary, within ninety days of the date of notice of
such refusal or such additional time as may be permitted pursuant
to such regulations, except that disposition in accordance with
the customs laws may
not be made in such manner as may result, directly or indirectly,
in the sale, to the ultimate consumer, of a new motor vehicle or
new motor vehicle engine that fails to comply with applicable
standards of the Administrator under this part.
(3) A new motor vehicle or new motor vehicle engine intended
solely for export, and so labeled or tagged on the outside of the
container and on the vehicle or engine itself, shall be subject
to the provisions of subsection (a), except that if the country
which is to receive such vehicle or engine has emission standards
which differ from the standards prescribed under section 202,
then such vehicle or engine shall comply with the standards of
such country which is to receive such vehicle or engine.
[42 U.S.C. 7522] (c) Administrative Assessment of Certain Penalties.-
(1) Administrative penalty authority.- In lieu of
commencing a civil action under subsection (b), the
Administrator may assess any civil penalty prescribed in
subsection (a) of this section, section 211(d), or section
213(d), except that the maximum amount of penalty sought
against each violator in a penalty assessment proceeding
shall not exceed $200,000, unless the Administrator and
the Attorney General jointly determine that a matter
involving a larger penalty amount is appropriate for
administrative penalty assessment. Any such determination
by the Administrator and the Attorney General shall not be
subject to judicial review. Assessment of a civil penalty
under this subsection shall be by an order made on the
record after opportunity for a hearing in accordance with
sections 554 and 556 of title 5 of the United States Code.
The Administrator shall issue reasonable rules for
discovery and other procedures for hearings under this
paragraph. Before issuing such an order, the Administrator
shall give written notice to the person to be assessed an
administrative penalty of the Administrator's proposal to
issue such order and provide such person an opportunity to
request such a hearing on the order, within 30 days of the
date the notice is received by such person. The
Administrator may compromise, or remit, with or without
conditions, any administrative penalty which may be
imposed under this section.
(2) Determining amount.- In determining the amount of
any civil penalty assessed under this subsection, the
Administrator shall take into account the gravity of the
violation, the economic benefit or savings (if any)
resulting from the violation, the size of the violator's
business, the violator's history of compliance with this
title, action taken to remedy the violation, the effect of
the penalty on the violator's ability to continue in
business, and such other matters as justice may require.
(3) Effect of administrator's action.- (A) Action by
the Administrator under this subsection shall not affect
or limit the Administrator's authority to enforce any
provision of this Act; except that any violation,
(i) with respect to which the Administrator has
commenced and is diligently prosecuting an action
under this subsection, or
(ii) for which the Administrator has issued a
final order not subject to further judicial review
and the violator has paid a penalty assessment under
this subsection,
shall not be the subject of civil penalty action under
subsection (b).
(B) No action by the Administrator under this
subsection shall affect any person's obligation to comply
with any section of this Act.
(4) Finality of order.- An order issued under this
subsection shall become final 30 days after its issuance
unless a petition for judicial review is filed under
paragraph (5).
(5) Judicial review.- Any person against whom a civil
penalty is assessed in accordance with this subsection may
seek review of the assessment in the United States District
Court for the District of Columbia, or for the district in
which the violation is alleged to have occurred, in which
such person resides, or where such person's principal place
of business is located, within the 30-day period beginning
on the date a civil penalty order is issued. Such person
shall simultaneously send a copy of the filing by certified
mail to the Administrator and the Attorney General. The
Administrator shall file in the court a certified copy, or
certified index, as appropriate, of the record on which the
order was issued within 30 days. The court shall not set
aside or remand any order issued in accordance with the
requirements of this subsection unless there is not
substantial evidence in the record, taken as a whole, to
support the finding of a violation or unless the
Administrator's assessment of the penalty constitutes an
abuse of discretion, and the court shall not impose
additional civil penalties unless the Administrator's
assessment of the penalty constitutes an abuse of
discretion. In any proceedings, the United States may seek
to recover civil penalties assessed under this section.
(6) Collection.- If any person fails to pay an assessment
of a civil penalty imposed by the Administrator as provided
in this subsection-
(A) after the order making the assessment has become
final, or
(B) after a court in an action brought under
paragraph (5) has entered a final judgment in favor of
the Administrator,
the Administrator shall request the Attorney General to
bring a civil action in an appropriate district court to
recover the amount assessed (plus interest at rates
established pursuant to section 6621(a)(2) of the Internal
Revenue Code of 1986 from the date of the final order or the
date of the final judgment, as the case may be). In such an
action, the validity, amount, and appropriateness of the
penalty shall not be subject to review. Any person who fails
to pay on a timely basis the amount of an assessment of a
civil penalty as described in the first sentence of this
paragraph shall be required to pay, in addition to that
amount and interest, the United States' enforcement
expenses, including attorneys fees and costs for collection
proceedings, and a quarterly nonpayment penalty for each
quarter during which such failure to pay persists. The
nonpayment penalty shall be in an amount equal to 10 percent
of the aggregate amount of that person's penalties and
nonpayment penalties which are unpaid as of the beginning of
such quarter.
[42 U.S.C. 7524]
 
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#15
Your good with the copy and paste Crunch. But the MSD box comes with a 50 state approvel from the EPA and powers to be and the sticker saying so to put on the rad support. And that includes the communist state of California.