Toyota Camry 2000 16,000 5S-FE 4 cyl

Discussion in 'Import Vehicles' started by chevyfan, Feb 11, 2017.

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water pump quit $2000 bill for repair but water pump not a listed item..sound OK?

  1. normal

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  2. not normal

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  1. chevyfan

    chevyfan Newbie

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    Monday update....with no call saturday or today, I asked a neighbor to drive me to the shop to see what is going on. The car is there up on a lift with the hood open and the two front tires off. The manager came out and we all walked to the car and he showed my neighbor and me again the belt that was partially shredded and showed me the water pump they took out of the car. I guess the belt started a chain reaction of stuff. He did say the valves were bent. He said he is waiting for the , I think he said "head". whatever it is, was never delivered Saturday as promised and he is still waiting today for it and called while we were there and told me once it gets it, it takes 3 or 4 hours to install and he would bring the car all done to me about 5:30 pm today. I did see a pile of parts right next to the car and he explained what happened when the belt went and started a type of chain reaction among the other parts including the water pump. This probably all makes more sense to all of you ..but since I never had this kind of repair before, it kind of makes sense...the
    "chain reaction".

    Now I see Mobile Dan said the car's valves could not be bent as I see by my papers from this forum. I know when my neighbor drove me there and saw a NAPA sign she said that is a great company....just what my male neighbor said when we mentioned that from the company card. The manager did say with all they did, I would have a "new" car. Still not sure of everything but if it lasts 24 months, that would be good, if 24,000 miles ...it only has 16,000 now in 17 years.

    So if the valves cannot be bent due to the engine.....when I get the car back and he again explains what happens.....I will bring up that terms of it being a "non-interference engine" and see the response. I feel more was probably done than needed in order to have a bigger bill but I think if they really replaced everything listed in the bill, to challenge it would just be too upsetting and hopefully, the car will outlast us this time. I will report further when we have the car without further charges. No one ever likes to think when they are in a vulnerable situation that they are charged to repair items not needed to be repaired, especially at an older age when the finances are different than when younger and working.
     
  2. billr

    billr wrench Staff Member

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    Ah, yes, the heat-shield bolts. I did read about those when Dan first posted, but then forgot after a few more replies...
     
  3. Mobile Dan

    Mobile Dan wrench

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    So, you saw the car. Parts were removed. "The head" was still at the cylinder head repair shop, according to the manager. It seems unlikely that the manager would be brazen enough to assume that you and your male neighbor would be so naive that neither of you would look at the engine and say "But the head is still right there on the engine...!" if the head was in fact right there in plain sight. Maybe their shop policy is to remove ALL cylinder heads if the timing belt is broken, because they are not willing to diagnose any valve problem, so they just "send the head out" and let the cylinder head shop deal with it, and add it to your bill.
    It would be valuable information, I think, to know whether or not the shop treated you fairly. But if "to challenge it would just be too upsetting", then, deciding to be satisfied with "I paid the bill, they fixed my car, now it runs great!" is definitely a choice available to you.


    [​IMG] photo of 4 cylinder engine with cylinder head removed.
     
  4. billr

    billr wrench Staff Member

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    It is even uglier than that, Dan. The OP says it "was up on the lift", where it probably wasn't even visible. How often do you do head work from down below??? Maybe they needed space under the car for storage...

    OP, I can't really claim something is wrong with what that shop is doing, but a lot isn't making sense. As I said, approach them "gently", but try to get enough more info for us to advise conclusively.
     
  5. chevyfan

    chevyfan Newbie

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    Still waiting at about 5 PM. No call or car. I think promising the head gasket kit (I assume this is the head needed replacing) to be delivered Saturday and not done...then today Monday and this AM not there and I could see the manager was upset. Doubt he gets it done if it was delivered later......don't know what holds it up from being delivered to him.
    I did just read and learn about non-interference engines.....really interesting...again I am glad I picked this car to buy. Felt it was well built. When i had to rent a car years ago and drive through mountains and deserts in extreme heat so bad cars were stalling all over the road but the Camry I rented never got hot.....I have never regretted buying it, even though almost all of my cars were chevys and I enjoyed them all from the 57 bel air to th 73 Monte Carlo.
    I got stopped from continuing this Monday for web maintenance so I will continue now.
    Monday at 5:30 PM the delivery time...the manager called and said the head was just delivered so he would not be delivering the car today. He said he would work on it tomorrow Tuesday...so I assume we get it today. My husband got the call and said the manager said something about doing something special for us to make up for everything but did not know what yet. Since he did call to say the head was delivered and that was all he was waiting for to finish the job.....I see no reason we can't get the car today.
    I did read on the web about a non-interference engine....very interesting.

    Said it means.....that if a belt breaks the pistons will not hit the valves. Still means a tow home. Also, while valves may not have collided with the pistons, it is possible to have
    valve to valve interference. If sol..equals bent or broken valves. (Sounds like a way to give the benefit of a doubt about valves being bent). Then said..if the pistons are undamaged, it might be worth a quote to repair the head. It might need a few new valves and a value job. (all this is quotes).

    It is correct that I could not see as it was way above my 5' height. They did not know I was coming to see the car and they had another car just as high up on a lift, a car not there before. It is a small work area but I do not know why it was up high...looked like it made it easier for them to walk around the floor.

    Bottom line....I should get the car today and would appreciate knowing exactly what part of the bill or the procedure raises a question with any or all of you. You are the experts and if there is any more questions I should ask, I will. Not having a running car is quite devastating for us. I am asking this cause we need to know how questionable everything is
    as we do need to get our 73 Monte Carlo running to have the spare car and wonder if what you fellows say would make you say go elsewhere when I can. I do have a garage I went to years ago that worked on the older car. and did a good job. Unfortunately, I have this problem with garages that when I want spark plugs cleaned and not replaced (and I did that as a teen years ago, when the garage says definitely they would just clean them and when I get the car, it is on the bill as $90 for new plugs, it makes me nervous going back there. We had a retired mechanic in our park years ago that would just clean the plugs when new ones were not needed and a car going 200 miles year doesn't wear out
    plugs. but they did a great job on our power brake system so I paid the bill but cannot get the new plug charge out of my mind cause I specifically asked as other places always said they would only replace them not clean them so when someone said willing to clean. I believed them until I picked up the car and got the bill.

    So what is everyone's opinion as to: 1. what bothered you about the charges on the camry? 2. would do you think about having the current AA Autocare shop look at the Chevy?
    Again, thanks to all for your comments and opinions..it means a lot and yes before I finally stopped talking about all this, I definitely will be sure to give something to batauto.com. Again, the car should be delivered today..so I will be back again. You guys really really helped me get through this without a panic attack. And calmed my husband down as he is not a mechanic and is different from me as he just wants to trust everyone and not ask any questions. All I remember now that was said by the manager was when the belt failed, then water pump failed, and then mentioned the valves. It is all on the bill I listed above...nothing more added and nothing taken away. I do remember what it felt like when I was driving and it all happened.....it was really bad....I have never had all that happen with any car over many years of driving. Again..I will be back and hope to hear your summing up of it all and especially what in particular bothered you about the bill and whether I should think about letting them get the Chevy going.
    It does have a hose leak from the radiator that our neighbor tried to replace and could not do it. It needs to be up on a rack to fix that hose.
     
  6. chevyfan

    chevyfan Newbie

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    One more thing I just remembered. Lately brake light came on but noticed nothing with the brakes and it would just go off. Don't see how this goes with anything but it was unusual and saw it on during all the commotion before the car started failing.
     
  7. nickb2

    nickb2 Wrench. I help when I can

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    Well Ms chevy fan, there is a lot of info there to respond to, but I have time.
     
  8. nickb2

    nickb2 Wrench. I help when I can

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    First of all, glad you did not panic, that would have been useless.

    Second, you did well on informing yourself and your husband so things did not get out of hand. I have been doing this trade for 26 yrs now, and have seen my fair share of panicked clients. It's part of the job when folks don't understand the essentials of it all.

    As for the chevy, that hose should be a short fix, so no worry there. The parts are very cheap, so I expect a good outcome for that spare car.

    I am assuming the brake light on is for the toyota, I recommend to check the fluid level in the master cylinder, if good, suspect the fluid level sensor if no leaks from the hydraulic lines.
     
  9. nickb2

    nickb2 Wrench. I help when I can

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    Usually when a brake light like that is intermittent, always check the level of fluid first.

    Here is how to check that on this camry.

    See snapshot and print the PDF if needed.

    Screenshot (55).png
     

    Attached Files:

  10. nickb2

    nickb2 Wrench. I help when I can

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    Just be sure to tell us exactly which light is lighting up.

    Because depending on options on the car, there may be a quick way to check, by checking the codes.
     
  11. chevyfan

    chevyfan Newbie

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    I do have a code reader I use on the Toyota, if that is easier. It is a CanOBO2 Code Reader. Didn't think to check something like that with it but I do
    use it to check for Check Engine Light.

    No, I did not panic...All I could think of was to get off the very busy city street I was on. I came out of a store parking lot going to a street light to turn left when the noise really got bad and that light is very very long. Got to turn left okay and in right lane and turned off main street at the first open street on my right. Car was going crazy but as long as it moved I managed a short distance to a driveway off the street completely and next door was the auto shop. So I was lucky. I do have Auto Club free towing but decided to use the auto shop right there. They pushed the car from the driveway next door to their shop. Seemed like good luck cause when I turned into the driveway the car went nuts and so many lights came on, battery picture,
    oil picture, etc. No need to panic...just important to get out of traffic.

    Would the Code Reader do a good job? I downloaded the PDF. I checked my owners manual and saw the panel pictures. As I remember on the final stop these lit up...
    BRAKE (type A), Discharge warning light, low oil pressure warning light.
    It is a SXV20 Model with 5S-FE 4 cy engine. felt like a Christmas tree was lighting up.
    It is almost 2:30 pm now. I called the manager's cell phone to see how all is going. I got the voice mail but I figured working on the car, I would shut my phone off so no interruptions but I left a message to let him know I called in case I missed a call from him earlier today.
    I didn't panic but I felt like I was in shock at what happened...but I think I remember only these light when I went to shut it off.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2017
  12. nickb2

    nickb2 Wrench. I help when I can

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    Well then, I just think that when the engine died, it is normal for the instrument panel to light up like a christmas tree. Just be sure to ask the tech that is fixing the car to be sure to check for any and all codes. Erase them if any and then do a good test drive to see if any of those codes come back.

    Your code reader is not capable in my opinion to read ABS codes and chassis codes. But in principle, that should not be an issue, since it only the engine that gave out.

    Anyway, I think this thread will have a positive outcome. You have been a most assiduous person.
     
  13. chevyfan

    chevyfan Newbie

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    Thank you for them kind words. I will be back a final time after this; however, right now my neighbor drove me down and the car is actually almost ready. They needed a small hose which was just delivered as I got there and they wanted to take the car for a test drive...then she is done. They did explain.....water pump seized and timing belt went crazy, etc. etc. The mechanic was very pleased and said all went well as far as fixing everything. My neighbor drove me home and I did call back to ask them to check the brake fluid and that I wanted a final invoice which I did not have and since there is that warranty of 24 months /24,000 miles, I figured a final invoice would be important. They will be bringing the car to my home in awhile. They said they were pleased with the car and I should consider it to be like a new car. I was reading on the net about an old recall on these cars for similar problems and those cars could not be fixed but apparently my problem was okay to fix. I may consider having them help restore my 73 Monte Carlo.....but after paying
    this credit bill down somewhat.

    as far as my code reader is concerned, I only got it to help with my Check Engine Light code and that works fine for me. I replaced some expensive sensors years ago but that did not stop that code so I got this reader. so no surprises.

    Awaiting my "new car" and I will be back a final time. Thanks again to everyone. Your advice and opinions really helped me deal with all this.
     
  14. billr

    billr wrench Staff Member

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    Sticking with just the Camry:

    It is very unlikely there were any bent valves on that non-interference engine! Yes, I can think of some scenarios that maybe could result in bent valves; but very rare and maybe not even possible. I would have to examine that specific head design to prove if it is even possible to bend them. Point is, I think they just automatically yanked the head for a rebuild without ever trying to determine if it was necessary. That's a very safe approach for them, but rather expensive for you. Ask for the old (bent) valves, of course, but I'm expecting they won't be available. Even if you do get them, where is the proof they came out of your engine, or even type of engine?

    To make you feel better about this cost, they tell you it will be "like a new car". Far from it! The engine won't be even close to "new", much less everything else. That just seems like a sleazy thing to tell a customer.

    Looking at parts costs, that timing set jumped out at me. I was seeing those listed for $50-150 (with pump); you are paying over 2X that. Yes, it is normal for a shop to make some profit on parts, but much of that is offset by a lower cost to them from the parts vendor. Ask them if the timing kit is genuine Toyota, from a dealer. Those are probably as pricey as what you are being charged.

    There also seem to be too many "couldn't get the part in time" excuses. Hasn't the Camry been the "best-selling car in USA" for a while now? Those parts should be readily available, even if you are in a fairly small town.
     
  15. nickb2

    nickb2 Wrench. I help when I can

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    @billr, yeah, the OEM kits come close to almost 400$. You have to buy every thing separately. Thats why I always go with gates kits. They are very good kits.

    As for the sleazy comment, yes to that also. It take me about 4 to five hours tops to swap a timing belt kit on these engines.

    This thread reminds me of when my mother had a t-belt go one of her cars. I was not available to fix it for her, so she brought the car to a canadian tire. Well, when they called her to say come pick up the car, she said fine.

    Then she called me back and said this car is no way fixed.

    I said why? She said I can't drive up the steep incline to get to work. So I drove the car, no pick up at all, I said, the tech timed it wrong.

    I said bring it back.

    So she proceeded to do so. Once I got to the garage, I said to the service manager at that particular shop, stop working on the car, your tech has no idea what he is doing.

    When I called Carol, a very great tech that taught me alot when I was apprenticing in another canadian tire, he said, sure, bring it in.

    Sure enough, he knew exactly what I was talking about.

    I remember the other tech, under my very watchful eye grunting and sweating behind his mistake. He said there are no reference marks.

    I laughed, and the service manager said the garage door was not big enough so much I was irate, I said this is my moms car. So don't try to BS me. Everyone up there knows who I am. I have a reputation of not being a very patient man in front of incompetence.

    Good thing canadian tire has a good coast to coast policy, Carol fixed it all for free, so mom was not out of pocket, and she even got the rental charge reimbursed.

    So me being a bit cheeky, good thing mom has a tech as a son and now knows the best ones in quebec.

    Carol got the job done, even if I wasn't there. I trust him implicitly. @ this point, I hope he is enjoying his retirement.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2017

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