Aisin TF-80SC

rex1825

Newbie
Joined
Jul 17, 2021
Messages
8
Points
1
Make
Alfa Romeo
Model
159 SW Ti
Year
2009
Miles
~200k
Engine
2.4 diesel
First hello to everyone,

For some reason, when asking our big brother google for tranny help, it send me to this forum, so yeah, here I am.

I own a Alfa Romeo 159 SW Ti 2.4JTDm Q-Tronic, and to jump right to problem, it is regarding gearbox.

159 uses few different gearboxes as manuals, there is one semi automatic, and old scool (torque converter) automatic that I wanna talk about.

Firstly few thing about what I know by now, the Aisin TF-80SC is pretty spread gearbox among european cars, basically it has in all of them same ratios per gears, except final drive ratio.

FIAT, in my case Alfa Romeo has 3 different FDRs, so it has 3.75:1 on a petrol 3.2 engine, 3.08:1 on a diesel 2.4 engine and 2.67:1 on diesel 1.9 engine. Last one is basically in every FIAT group car (FIAT, Lancia, AR).
Besides FDR, I've read that this gearbox is pretty autonomous, which means it has all that it needs from it's internal sensors (maybe few things over CAN, like actual engine RPM, engine Temperature and vehicle speed)
Also, there are cars with 4WD, and main difference is only if front differential (usually used double C diff), with additional transfer box, shaft and rear diff with shafts. And mostly it is plug and play (if mountings are present).

And here is my problem, as of now, my car when driving on highway @120kph in 6th gear is doing 2000rpm. It is not bad for MPG, bit it is a bit on louder side. Now I know, it is a diesel but again, I'd like to take that number a bit down, so I could run 130kph @1750rpm or so.
The 2.67:1 gearbox is close, but I found that Opel had/has on their models 2.56:1 FDR gearbox. This is jackpot for me and my setup TBH, with 2.56:1, car would do 1650rpm @120kph, wich would lower engine noise substantally.
Now before going further, I love the car, I don't want to change it just because of this, and money doesn't pay a big role in this for me.

So my questuon, since I couldn't get it anywhere is, besides mechanical differences (if any) how will software coop with all? I've read somewhere that gearbox ECU has fixed ratios memorized in firmware, maybe I'm wrong. I know there is an option in engine ECU (at least on my car) if it is an auto or manual box coupled with engine. Also, I've read that it has different parameters for petrol and diesel engines (logically, diesels rev up to 4350, petrols presumably to ~6200 in case of AR).

So, if I couple 2.56:1 gearbox to my car, with original (2.4JTDm Q-Tronic ECU), will I have problems (probably)?

Is there any way to read firmware and overwrite/modify that single parameter so I could use different FDR?

This would be so helpful to me.

I have additional gearbox ECU for experimentation, just need headers how to do it, and with what software.

And another thing, I know TF-80SC is rated to 480Nm max, my gearbox, at least while viewing over OBD has torque limiter @510Nm.
What is needed for gearbox to bump torque up, is tere anything that can be done to it mechanically? And also for torque converter, can it be modified to?

Thanks in advance, really hoping someone will help me out...
Cheers...
 
Last edited:

billr

wrench
Staff member
Joined
Mar 12, 2007
Messages
7,331
Points
63
Was this type vehicle sold in the North American market? If not, we will still try to help, but may have limited info and experience with it.
 

rex1825

Newbie
Joined
Jul 17, 2021
Messages
8
Points
1
Nope, AR 159 never came to US via dealership, but it was part of the GM group back when it was released (2005-2011).

Just need info basically what does TF-80SC ask from car as info, and if it has specific internal (firmware) settings for any of the gearing.

And of course, if it is possible at all to read firmware, and modify it.

Thanks...
 

billr

wrench
Staff member
Joined
Mar 12, 2007
Messages
7,331
Points
63
I am not so pessimistic! Isn't that trans used in several cars that are sold here, like Caddy, Chevy Cruze, and some Fords?

Where does the AR unit sense "vehicle speed", at the trans output shaft or the differential ring-gear, or someplace else?
 

rex1825

Newbie
Joined
Jul 17, 2021
Messages
8
Points
1
As far as I know, ABS sensors...

Not sure if gearbox has any sensors regarding speed, or does it calculate by knowing rpms and gear ratios.

From admin: This was caught in our spam filter, probably because of the wiki link
 
Last edited:

bp042665

transmission guy
Joined
Nov 26, 2012
Messages
743
Points
18
Location
Iva South Carolina
i am sure there is a place to change software just have to see if any alfa romeo forums have a link to find this info out i am sure some one has done this
 

rex1825

Newbie
Joined
Jul 17, 2021
Messages
8
Points
1
i am sure there is a place to change software just have to see if any alfa romeo forums have a link to find this info out i am sure some one has done this
Believe me, did look everywhere, nothing I found...
 

billr

wrench
Staff member
Joined
Mar 12, 2007
Messages
7,331
Points
63
I just now saw your post about the ABS and trans speed sensors. We need to investigate that further. And, does this have traction-control? Depending on what speed sensors there are, where in the drive-train they are located, and how they are used. changing the FDR may have no effect other than to make the speedo/odo readings inaccurate.
 
Last edited:

rex1825

Newbie
Joined
Jul 17, 2021
Messages
8
Points
1
Hay rex1825, I thought you had abandoned us! What about my question regarding the VSS location? That could be key to whether you need to worry about the trans controller at all. I assume this '09 has ABS, but what about traction-control?

Point is, the FDR change may only have the same result as a tire/wheel size change; only the speedo/odo readings will be off. I expect you would be OK with that.
I did answer, but didn' t see warning because of wiki link lol me, speed is read over ABS, and my car has VSR, VDC and hill holder.

If it's only speed, I don't care TBH, since I am planing to get full digital (LCD) instrument cluster.
 
Last edited:

billr

wrench
Staff member
Joined
Mar 12, 2007
Messages
7,331
Points
63
I saw that you had replied, then edited my query; sorry. I have to go for now, have an appointment in 20 minutes.

What do VSR and VDC stand for?
 

rex1825

Newbie
Joined
Jul 17, 2021
Messages
8
Points
1
Have you studied this description of the TCM operation?

Does this have 2-wheel drive? If so, jack up the drive wheels and spin them with the engine. Let's see how much the PCM/TCM complain when there is a gross mismatch of wheel speed; there may be some clues there
Only 4WD (Q4) Q-Tronic on 159 is a 3.2 petrol, both diesels are FWD (Q2).

This I can reply without testing, like 2 weeks ago I was doing service on car, and while on hoist, we tested if engine is crancked properly, front wheels got a bit of spinn, and ABS/VSR/VDC electronics started to kick in...
 

rex1825

Newbie
Joined
Jul 17, 2021
Messages
8
Points
1
I saw that you had replied, then edited my query; sorry. I have to go for now, have an appointment in 20 minutes.

What do VSR and VDC stand for?
VDC - Vehicle Dynamics Control, a mix of stability and traction systems as per owners handbook
ASR - AntiSlip regulation (sorry type for VSR), it is integral part of VDC

Also there is EBD, aka emergency brake dynamics or something similar.
 
Top