Well, the air-check indicates/confirms the "direct" clutch has an enormous leak. I probably won't post again until I have the trans dis-assembled and can ask questions about which parts need replacing and where to get them.
Trouble Code Definitions
Ford 4R70W shifting problem
- Thread starter billr
- Start date
JackC
wrench
Ouch. too hot to work tis week.
Not in Wisconsin, we had to switch on our furnace three times in August, temperature dropped to 47*F, first time ever, also in July and June.
If there is global warming, not here, someplace else, getting NW winds from Siberia and those polar bears are sure not getting a suntan.
Only a complete moron would believe carbon dioxide that has a very low specific value, molecule only resonate to a very tiny wavelength from the sun and only occupies 0.04% of the atmosphere is causing global warming so that crooks can charge a carbon tax. And only based on temperature readings for the last 140 years.
One thing for sure, can't have a democracy with stupid people, ha, my relatives that moved down south to get away from a 600 dollar a year heating bill are paying 500 bucks a month in air conditioner use.
If there is global warming, not here, someplace else, getting NW winds from Siberia and those polar bears are sure not getting a suntan.
Only a complete moron would believe carbon dioxide that has a very low specific value, molecule only resonate to a very tiny wavelength from the sun and only occupies 0.04% of the atmosphere is causing global warming so that crooks can charge a carbon tax. And only based on temperature readings for the last 140 years.
One thing for sure, can't have a democracy with stupid people, ha, my relatives that moved down south to get away from a 600 dollar a year heating bill are paying 500 bucks a month in air conditioner use.
Jack, so far I have been mostly on the concrete garage floor; well into shade and as low as can be. The concrete is staying relatively cool, and so am I!
But life isn't always easy. I got a call from a friend today who needs electrical help with his home A/C. It is in the attic, in Tracy/Stockton. I will probably go there this Sunday at 4 AM.
But life isn't always easy. I got a call from a friend today who needs electrical help with his home A/C. It is in the attic, in Tracy/Stockton. I will probably go there this Sunday at 4 AM.
JackC
wrench
Bill: I hope it is the fuse or fuse box or capacitor outside ( like mine and my daughters were last year) instead of in the attic parts. 4am is the right time. It was 78 @ 4 last night. Which was as cool as it got.
I don't think it will be that easy. He has a new control PCB to install, but it "isn't the same as" the one he was old is bad. Yeah, i expect it is even hotter out there.
OK, it is mostly apart and pictures are attached!
1) Broken spring: may well be the root cause. I'll describe where it is from if BP doesn't recognize the piston/plunger in the picture.
2) Worn friction: is from the rear-most drum, the "direct I think. The friction material that is left is rather coarse and loose, has a charcoal feel... All of the ones in that drum are like that and are warped/dished like a Belleville spring.
3) Warped steel: they looked "blued" from heat and are also warped/dished (again, from rear drum)
4) Notched drum: this is a forward drum, and the steels have beaten on it pretty bad. Does it need to be replaced?
5) Scored drum: no, of course it is not the same one that is "notched" It is very slight, though. I have cleaned up and (successfully) used cranks that were worse. I think it will be OK
6) Worn band: it rides on the drum above. Friction material is only about .040" thick. I think it needs to be replaced
7) Broken iron ring: from back in the rear area. I probably broke it during dis-assembly
8) Bent plate: Well, I didn't bend it, but it happened "on my watch". I think I can straighten it OK
So, I think I need a kit with all the seals, disks, and bands; correct? I assume that will also include the iron rings that I broke. Any suggestions on brand or source for such a kit? What about the broken spring and "notched" drum (if I need it); where do I get those for a reasonable price? I'm not too interested in opening the pump or replacing pressed-in bushings. I could do those tasks, but am only trying to make this trans "serviceable" for the next few years; and it is in low-perf "grocery-getter" service.
Unfortunately, I could find no distinct cause for the big leak in the direct clutch that I found with the air-check; unless that broken spring could account for it. However, the condition of those clutch plates indicates it has been slipping too much. I would feel better if I had found a broken drum or seal back there.
OK, it is mostly apart and pictures are attached!
1) Broken spring: may well be the root cause. I'll describe where it is from if BP doesn't recognize the piston/plunger in the picture.
2) Worn friction: is from the rear-most drum, the "direct I think. The friction material that is left is rather coarse and loose, has a charcoal feel... All of the ones in that drum are like that and are warped/dished like a Belleville spring.
3) Warped steel: they looked "blued" from heat and are also warped/dished (again, from rear drum)
4) Notched drum: this is a forward drum, and the steels have beaten on it pretty bad. Does it need to be replaced?
5) Scored drum: no, of course it is not the same one that is "notched" It is very slight, though. I have cleaned up and (successfully) used cranks that were worse. I think it will be OK
6) Worn band: it rides on the drum above. Friction material is only about .040" thick. I think it needs to be replaced
7) Broken iron ring: from back in the rear area. I probably broke it during dis-assembly
8) Bent plate: Well, I didn't bend it, but it happened "on my watch". I think I can straighten it OK
So, I think I need a kit with all the seals, disks, and bands; correct? I assume that will also include the iron rings that I broke. Any suggestions on brand or source for such a kit? What about the broken spring and "notched" drum (if I need it); where do I get those for a reasonable price? I'm not too interested in opening the pump or replacing pressed-in bushings. I could do those tasks, but am only trying to make this trans "serviceable" for the next few years; and it is in low-perf "grocery-getter" service.
Unfortunately, I could find no distinct cause for the big leak in the direct clutch that I found with the air-check; unless that broken spring could account for it. However, the condition of those clutch plates indicates it has been slipping too much. I would feel better if I had found a broken drum or seal back there.
JackC
wrench
Bill: I have installed a "not original" circuit board on my Trane furnace/AC and it was super easy. Just like anything- just do one wire at a time.
nickb2
Wrench. Diagnostic Tech.
Just sayin, you calif guys having fun yet?
I luv watching your interactions, it makes me want to grow old. As I grow older with friends, I find them more interesting with time. A good friend of mine was fishing last week, caught some fine striped bass that you can only find up in gaspesie, and since i am on vacay for a week or so, gives me a thought, maybe I should trek up there and see that bass for myself.
I luv watching your interactions, it makes me want to grow old. As I grow older with friends, I find them more interesting with time. A good friend of mine was fishing last week, caught some fine striped bass that you can only find up in gaspesie, and since i am on vacay for a week or so, gives me a thought, maybe I should trek up there and see that bass for myself.
bp042665
hunting nut
ok Bill WIT is who i use 1-800-940-0197 ask for joush summerman i would recomend a new direct drum trust me here a master kit both bands and for the broken snap ring i think its the 1 in the case that the center support sits on but i might need to see a picture and tell me more about the location of that broken spring i do see a broken sealing ring but they come in kit
nickb2
Wrench. Diagnostic Tech.
BP rocks again. Wish I had his tranny skills. I love it when a plan comes together.
I am going to a local Natpro trans supply house today to find out what they can do for parts. Otherwise, it will be WIT. I pored over online trans parts suppliers yesterday, and WIT is the one I settled on myself. They seem to have the best info and range of parts. The only reason I am looking at "local" is so we can start putting this back together today.
That "notched drum" is actually the Shell W/Sun Gear that is to the rear of the Reverse Drum; the two are coupled together by the (worn) notches on the Shell shown in the photo and tangs on the Reverse Drum (not shown). Those are both fairly expensive parts, even used, and I don't think that wear there is unusual or critical for that kind of coupling, so plan on re-using those. There is no broken snap-ring; the broken spring is a coil spring under the 1-2 Accumulator. I think I won't be able to get just a spring, only the whole accumulator "package", but that is only about $15 so not a problem.
So, my plan is to replace all the friction discs and bands, replace the direct steel discs, and replace the 1-2 modulator. I will, though, ask about a "loaded" direct drum that would come with the discs/piston/seals. If that isn't a reasonable option, then the direct drum looks fine to me and I have straightened the bent "spring plate" to near-perfection.
Again, I wish I had found a distinctly "broken" part in the direct clutch; but it does look badly "toasted" so maybe the seals look OK but are not. Obviously, they will get replaced along with all others; and I will air-check again before installing the VB!
I have no plans to disturb the VB or pump, except to replace the friction discs and seals in the IM clutch that is part of the pump assembly.
Is there any need to remove that tail extension? I plan on holding the trans case vertical (tail down) so that I can slip everything back in with as little dragging on the sides as possible.
That "notched drum" is actually the Shell W/Sun Gear that is to the rear of the Reverse Drum; the two are coupled together by the (worn) notches on the Shell shown in the photo and tangs on the Reverse Drum (not shown). Those are both fairly expensive parts, even used, and I don't think that wear there is unusual or critical for that kind of coupling, so plan on re-using those. There is no broken snap-ring; the broken spring is a coil spring under the 1-2 Accumulator. I think I won't be able to get just a spring, only the whole accumulator "package", but that is only about $15 so not a problem.
So, my plan is to replace all the friction discs and bands, replace the direct steel discs, and replace the 1-2 modulator. I will, though, ask about a "loaded" direct drum that would come with the discs/piston/seals. If that isn't a reasonable option, then the direct drum looks fine to me and I have straightened the bent "spring plate" to near-perfection.
Again, I wish I had found a distinctly "broken" part in the direct clutch; but it does look badly "toasted" so maybe the seals look OK but are not. Obviously, they will get replaced along with all others; and I will air-check again before installing the VB!
I have no plans to disturb the VB or pump, except to replace the friction discs and seals in the IM clutch that is part of the pump assembly.
Is there any need to remove that tail extension? I plan on holding the trans case vertical (tail down) so that I can slip everything back in with as little dragging on the sides as possible.
bp042665
hunting nut
Bill they crack around the weld in the bottom of drum also check in inter splines for wear that why i said replace a must
I hit another snag. There is a Shell just forward of the Center Support (the shell with worn notches). That Shell engages tangs on the Reverse Drum. Those two parts make a "sandwich" with several parts inside/between them; but the bottom-line is that the distance between the Shell and Reverse Drum is set by the thickness of the Forward Drum, Forward Clutch Hub, and some thrust bearings; those parts (and more) all being inside the "sandwich". If I put it together the way I see in videos and parts diagrams, using all the thrust bearings I took out, then the sandwich is too thick and the tangs/notches do not engage fully. Also, the Direct Drive Shaft and Sun Gear inside there both seem too short, such that splines on those two parts do not engage fully with their mating parts. I don't like that driving splines and tangs are not being "fully utilized". If I take out one thrust bearing everything fits nicely, but then there are two surfaces rotating relative to each other that have only a fluid film between them. And, if I leave that bearing out, I expect the end-play on the whole trans innards will be wrong. I should also point out the wear on the notches/tangs indicate that engagement there had not been full; the condition that seems wrong to me. (Anybody want pictures?)
So, friends, neighbors, and trans experts: Is it possible Ford just has a poorer-than-I-like design here, or am I putting something together wrong?
PS: go to the 4th picture in reply #21 above, that shows the wear in the notches of the Reverse Drum. I think you can see that the tangs that made the wear could have been deeper in the notches.
So, friends, neighbors, and trans experts: Is it possible Ford just has a poorer-than-I-like design here, or am I putting something together wrong?
PS: go to the 4th picture in reply #21 above, that shows the wear in the notches of the Reverse Drum. I think you can see that the tangs that made the wear could have been deeper in the notches.
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bp042665
hunting nut
the notches will never touch down deep it should just be under the top of the groove on the shell