Freeze 12

Boomer

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Hey folks, I was wondering if anyone has used this product called freeze 12? I have an 88 IROC-Z. It was a hot day today and, it didn't take long to notice that the AC needs charged. I've had to do it a couple of times over the years so I imagine there must be a leak somewhere. Anyway you know it's hard and/or expensive to get R12 these days. While looking around ebay I've come across this product which you can supposedly use. Are leaks in AC systems difficult to fix? I don't drive this car that much so perhaps I'd be better off just charging it and, going on my way? Is there something better I haven't mentioned? Freeze 12 indicates it's much cheaper than retrofitting 134a. Your thoughts?
 

crunch

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One good way to blow yourself an d it up. :)
Call you insurance agent and triple your insurance.
Also call 911 and tell them you have a bomb ready to blow up

A lot of that blend crap has got a butane mixer.

http://www.imcool.com/articles/aircondition/Porsche_928_Refrigerant_Fire.htm

There is no direct replacement for R12 no matter what anyone tells you. Unique fittings and a label is required with all SNAP refrigerants replacing R12. Vehicles without a HPCO switch are required to have one if an alternative is used.

http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/title6/609/wantknow.html
 

crunch

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Here is a little more info of blends.

http://www.autoacforum.com/messagevi..._MSGDB TABLE=


This one shows one blowing up and almost killing the dude.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjtowzVzl_4


http://www.vasa.org.au/images/movies/hc_demo.mov

There is no direct replacement for R12 no matter what anyone tells you. Unique fittings and a label is required with all SNAP refrigerants replacing R12. Vehicles without a HPCO switch are required to have one if an alternative is used.

http://www.imcool.com/articles/aircondition/Porsche_928_Refrigerant_Fire.htm

http://www.autoacforum.com/messageview.cfm?catid=2&threadid=17027&FTVAR_MSGDBTABLE=


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjtowzVzl_4


http://www.vasa.org.au/images/movies/hc_demo.mov



http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/title6/609/wantknow.html

Choosing and Using Alternative Refrigerants for Motor Vehicle Air ConditioningOzone Protection Hotline (800) 296-1996 May 1, 2001Changes from the October 14, 1999 version: added one refrigerant; other editorial changes. BackgroundScientists worldwide have concluded that CFC-12 and other chlorofluorocarbons deplete the ozone layer. As a result, over 150 countries have signed a treaty, called the Montreal Protocol, to protect the earth's ozone layer. In the US, the Protocol is implemented by the Clean Air Act, and regulations issued under the Act ended the production of CFC-12 for air conditioning and refrigeration uses on December 31, 1995. CFC-12 (also known by the trade name Freon) was widely used in air conditioners for automobiles and trucks for over 30 years. While new vehicles no longer use CFC-12, most vehicles built before 1994 still require its use for servicing. As a result, 30 million cars or more may need conversions to use an alternative refrigerant should the air conditioning develop a leak after CFC-12 is no longer available.Note: there are several other relevant fact sheets available online and through our hotline. Significant New Alternatives Policy (SNAP)In 1994, EPA established the SNAP Program to review alternatives to ozone-depleting substances like CFC-12. Under the authority of the 1990 Clean Air Act (CAA), EPA examines new substitutes for their ozone-depleting, global warming, flammability, and toxicity characteristics. EPA has determined that several refrigerants are acceptable for use as CFC-12 replacements in motor vehicle air conditioning systems, subject to certain use conditions. This fact sheet lists the use conditions in detail and provides information about the current crop of refrigerants. It is important to understand the meaning of "acceptable subject to use conditions." EPA believes such refrigerants, when used in accordance with the conditions, are safer for human health and the environment than CFC-12. This designation does not mean that the refrigerant will work in any specific system, nor does it mean that the refrigerant is perfectly safe regardless of how it is used. Finally, note that EPA does not approve or endorse any one refrigerant that is acceptable subject to use conditions over others also in that category. Note also that EPA does not test refrigerants under the SNAP process. Rather, we review information submitted to us by manufacturers and various independent testing laboratories. Therefore, it is important to discuss any new refrigerant with your vehicle dealer and shop technician before deciding to use it, and in particular to determine what effect using a new refrigerant will have on your warranty. Before choosing a new refrigerant, you should also consider whether it is readily and widely available, and your technician should consider the cost of buying recovery equipment for blends or recovery/recycling equipment for HFC-134a. Additional considerations about purchasing CFC-12 substitutes can be found in EPA's fact sheet titled "Questions to Ask Before You Purchase an Alternative Refrigerant."Definition of "Motor Vehicle Air Conditioning"Under the SNAP program, the motor vehicle air conditioning (MVAC) end-use includes all forms of air conditioning that provide cooling to the passenger compartments in moving vehicles. This definition includes both MVACs, defined under the section 609 regulations at 40 CFR 82.32, and MVAC-like equipment, defined under the section 608 regulations at 40 CFR 82.152. EPA regulations issued under sections 608 and 609 of the Clean Air Act distinguish between MVACs and MVAC-like equipment for purposes of refrigerant recycling and handling. EPA includes both in the SNAP MVAC end-use and has relied on this definition since the original SNAP rule of March 18, 1994 (59 FR 13044). All use conditions, unacceptability findings, and other regulatory actions for this end-use apply equally to on-road vehicles, such as automobiles and trucks, and to off-road vehicles, such as tractors, combines, construction, mining equipment, boats, planes, and trains.Misleading Use of "Drop-in" to Describe RefrigerantsMany companies use the term "drop-in" to mean that a substitute refrigerant will perform identically to CFC-12, that no modifications need to be made to the system, and that the alternative can be used alone or mixed with CFC-12. However, EPA believes the term confuses and obscures several important regulatory and technical points. First, charging one refrigerant into a system before extracting the old refrigerant is a violation of the SNAP use conditions and is, therefore, illegal. Second, certain components may be required by law, such as hoses and compressor shutoff switches. If these components are not present, they must be installed. See the section below on use conditions for more information on these points. Third, it is impossible to test a refrigerant in the thousands of air conditioning systems in existence to demonstrate identical performance. In addition, system performance is strongly affected by outside temperature, humidity, driving conditions, etc., and it is impossible to ensure equal performance under all of these conditions. Finally, it is very difficult to demonstrate that system components will last as long as they would have if CFC-12 were used. For all of these reasons, EPA does not use the term "drop-in" to describe any alternative refrigerant.Use ConditionsUnder the SNAP rule, each new refrigerant must be used in accordance with the conditions listed below. If you choose to use an alternative, make sure the service shop meets these requirements and that it has dedicated recovery equipment for blends or recovery/recycling equipment for HFC-134a. UNIQUE FITTINGS: Each new refrigerant must be used with a unique set of fittings to prevent the accidental mixing of different refrigerants. These fittings are attachment points on the car itself, on all recovery and recycling equipment, on can taps and other charging equipment, and on all refrigerant containers. If the car is being retrofitted, any service fittings not converted to the new refrigerant must be permanently disabled. Unique fittings help protect the consumer by ensuring that only one type of refrigerant is


used in each car. They also help protect the purity of the recycled supply of CFC-12, which means it will last longer, so fewer retrofits will be necessary nationwide. The list of fittings is available in an EPA fact sheet titled "Fitting Sizes and Label Colors for Motor Vehicle Refrigerants." Applicability to Manifold Gauges and Refrigerant IdentifiersManifold gauges allow technicians to diagnose system problems and to charge, recover, and/or recycle refrigerant. A standard fitting may be used at the end of the hoses attached to the manifold gauges, but unique fittings must be permanently attached at the ends of the hoses that attach to vehicle air conditioning systems and recovery or recycling equipment. Similarly, refrigerant identifiers may be used with multiple refrigerants. The connection between the identifier or similar service equipment and the service hose may be standardized and work with multiple hoses. For each refrigerant, however, the user must attach a hose to the identifier that has a fitting unique to that refrigerant permanently attached to the end going to the vehicle. Adapters for one refrigerant may not be attached to end 2 and then removed and replaced with the fitting for a different refrigerant. The guiding principle is that once attached to a hose, the fitting is permanent and is not removed.LABELS: Whether a car is originally designed to use a new refrigerant or is retrofitted, the technician must apply a detailed label giving specific information about the alternative. The label's background color is chosen by the manufacturer to be unique, and the label colors for each refrigerant are listed in an EPA fact sheet titled "Fitting Sizes and Label Colors for Motor Vehicle Refrigerants." The label shows: · the name and address of the technician and the company performing the retrofit; · the date of the retrofit; · the trade name, charge amount, and, when applicable, the ASHRAE numerical designation of the refrigerant; · the type, manufacturer, and amount of lubricant used; and · if the refrigerant is or contains an ozone-depleting substance, the phrase "ozone depleter" This label covers up information about the old refrigerant, and provides valuable details on the alternative and how it was used. It also tells the owner who performed the retrofit.REMOVE ORIGINAL REFRIGERANT: The original CFC-12 must be removed from the system prior to charging with the new refrigerant. This procedure will prevent the contamination of one refrigerant with another. Refrigerants mixed within a system probably won't work and could damage the system. As mentioned above, this requirement means that no alternative can be used as a "drop-in." BARRIER HOSES: HCFC-22, a component in some blends, can seep out through traditional hoses. Therefore, when using these blends, the technician must ensure that new, less permeable "barrier" hoses are used. These hoses must be installed if the system currently uses old, non-barrier hoses.. The table of refrigerants below notes this additional requirement where appropriate. COMPRESSOR SHUTOFF SWITCH: Some systems have a device that automatically releases refrigerant to the atmosphere to prevent extremely high pressures. When retrofitting any system with such a device to use a new refrigerant, the technician must also install a high-pressure shutoff switch. This switch will prevent the compressor from increasing the pressure to the point where the refrigerant is vented. Alternative RefrigerantsThe table below summarizes the following information about refrigerants reviewed under EPA's SNAP program for use in motor vehicle air conditioning systems. Note that "air conditioning" means cooling vehicle passenger compartments, not cargo areas, so refrigeration units on trucks and rail cars are not covered by this list. If your browser cannot display tables, please call our Hotline at 800-296-1996 to receive a free copy of this fact sheet in the mail or by fax. The title is "Choosing and Using Alternative Refrigerants for Motor Vehicle Air Conditioning".· Name: Many refrigerants are sold under various names. All known trade names are listed, separated by slashes. · Status: o acceptable subject to use conditions: May be used in any car or truck air conditioning system, provided the technician meets the conditions described above. Note that EPA cannot guarantee that any refrigerant will work in a specific system. o unacceptable: Illegal to use as a substitute for CFC-12 in motor vehicle air conditioners. o proposed acceptable subject to use conditions: May be used legally. EPA will accept public comment on these refrigerants and then make a final ruling. There is no formal EPA position until then, and it is inappropriate for advertising to imply that EPA has found the product acceptable. o not submitted: Illegal to use or sell as a substitute for CFC-12 in motor vehicle air conditioning systems. · Date of ruling: The date either a final rule or a proposed listing was published in the Federal Register. Note that proposed listings are not final and may change because of public comment. · Manufacturer name and contact phone number: Call for more information on testing, performance, system compatibility, etc. · Composition: Every refrigerant other than HFC-134a is a blend of two or more components. For More InformationEPA's Stratospheric Ozone Protection Hotline, at 800-296-1996, distributes numerous fact sheets and brochures. The following fact sheets discuss various issues related to motor vehicle air conditioning and ozone depletion.· Fitting Sizes and Label Colors for Motor Vehicle Refrigerants· Questions to Ask Before You Purchase an Alternative Refrigerant· The Facts Behind the Phaseout (ozone depletion science)· Qs & As on HC-12a, OZ-12, and Other Flammable Refrigerants· Qs & As on Ozone-Depleting Refrigerants and Their Alternatives Motor Vehicle Air Conditioning Substitutes for CFC-12 Reviewed Under EPA's SNAP Program as of March 29, 2006Acceptable Subject to Use Conditions (2)
Name (1) Date Manufacturer Components
HCFC-22 HCFC-124 HCFC-142b HFC-134a Butane(R-600)(3) Isobutane(R-600a)(3) HFC-227ea
HFC-134a 3/18/94 Several - - - 100 - - -
FRIGCFR-12 6/13/95 IntercoolDistributionl800-555-1442 - 39 - 59 2 - -
Free Zone/RB-276(4) 5/22/96 Hi Tech Refrigerants, LLC800-530-4805 - - 19 79 - - -
Ikon-12 5/22/96 Ikon Corp.601-868-0755 Composition claimed as confidential business information
R-406A/GHG(5) 10/16/96 People's Welding800-382-9006 55 - 41 - - 4 -
GHG-HP (5) 10/16/96 People's Welding800-382-9006 65 - 31 - - 4 -
GHG-X4/Autofrost/Chill-It (5) 10/16/96 People's Welding800-382-9006McMullen Oil Products800- 669-5730 51 28.5 16.5 - - 4 -
Hot Shot/Kar Kool (5) 10/16/96 ICOR800-357-4062 50 39 9.5 - - 1.5 -
Freeze 12 10/16/96 Technical Chemical800-527-0885 - - 20 80 - - -
GHG-X5 (5) 6/3/97 People's Welding800-382-9006 41 - 15 - - 4 40
SP34E 12/18/00 Solpower888-289-8866 Composition claimed as confidential business information
RS-24 12/20/02 Refrigerant Products Ltd Composition claimed as confidential business information
R-420A 3/29/06 RMS of Georgia - - 12 88 - - -
Unacceptable Substitutes (2)
Name (1) Date Manufacturer Reason
OZ-12® 3/18/94 OZ Technology Flammable blend of hydrocarbons; insufficient data to demonstrate safety
R-176 3/18/94 Arctic Chill Contains CFC-12, which is inappropriate in a CFC-12 substitute
HC-12a® 6/13/95 OZ Technology Flammable blend of hydrocarbons; insufficient data to demonstrate safety
Duracool 12a 6/13/95 Duracool Limited This blend is identical to HC-12a® in composition but is manufactured by a different company
R-405A 6/13/95 Greencool Contains a perfluorocarbon, which has extremely high global warming potential and lifetime
1. Many refrigerants, including R-401A (made by DuPont), R-401B (DuPont), R-409A (Elf Atochem), Care 30 (Calor Gas), Adak-29/Adak-12 (TACIP Int'l), MT-31 (Millenia Tech), and ES-12R (Intervest), have not been submitted for review in motor vehicle air conditioning, and it is therefore illegal to use these refrigerants in such systems as an alternative to CFC-12.2. See text for details on legality of use according to status o Acceptable Subject to Use Conditionsregarding fittings, labeling, no drop-in, and compressor shutoff switches. o Unacceptable; illegal for use as a CFC-12 substitute in motor vehicle air conditioners 3. Although some blends contain flammable components, all blends that are Acceptable Subject to Use Conditions are nonflammable as blended.4. Freezone contains 2% of a lubricant5. HCFC-22 content results in an additional use condition: must be used with barrier hoses
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Boomer

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Thanks for your reply crunch. I read quite a bit of that epa stuff last night while googling this stuff.

Not to argue or anything (as I'm certainly not qualified) but, it seems as though that first link is saying it happened because he used a hose that was too long and not secured by a steel support. Are you saying R12 would not have reacted that way?

Anyway what would you do if this were your car? I wouldn't mind staying with R12 but, I need to stop it from leaking. I don't want to keep having to track down and buy that stuff. I'd love to hear your suggestions and, if possible any kind of ballpark costs. Whatever comes off the top of your head.
 

stu

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Bite the bullet and convert to 134a.


If you dump freeze12 in you will never find anyone that will check your system for pressure.
 

crunch

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R-12 will not blow up or set things on fire or try to kill you. :)

But first thing is to find the leak and fix it.

Second thing you can still by R-12 if you are certified and the price is going down on it.
Or you can convert to R-134a

Find the leak and post back here or.

Go up to ACkits.com.
They have a help forum on how to and good repair parts and tools.

Good Luck
Crunch
 

jjm

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The R-4 compressor on many GM is notorious for shaft seal leaks. Look at the face of the clutch for oily residue - a telltale sign of a leaking shaft seal.

Good news is you don't need to replace the compressor. The bad news is you will need a special tool for the job, and the system will need to be evacuated, requiring vacuuming the system down before charging. You should also replace the accumulator and O-rings while the system is open.

If the leak isn't in the shaft seal, you'll need to use either an inexpensive UV leak detection kit, like the one shown below, or an electronic leak detector.

<img src="http://www.autoacforum.com/mastercool/53585.jpg">

<a href="http://www.ackits.com/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=01&Product_Code=53585&Category_Code=uvkits">Professional UV Locater Kit </a>

Don't go with the alternates... aside from everything mentioned here, they also require unqiue conversion fittings that most test and recovery equipment won't readily connect to.

Joe

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Boomer

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Ok on the advice of you gentlemen I have ruled out freeze 12 and any other alternative. It's either stay with R-12 or go 134a. Since crunch mentioned that R12 is still available and, the price is coming down and, that's what is there no conversion needed it may be the best bet.
The kit Jim posted says 10 applications for $65. Can anyone give me a ballpark estimate of what it would cost to have a shop check for the leak? I'm just thinking if I buy this kit and do it myself and I can't see the leak, then I'm going to need an electronic finder. So either I would then have to take it to a shop anyway or buy the tester. Also I dont have equipment to evacuate. I could probably borrow guages for the recharge. As far as the leak I am only assuming it leaks because I think this is the second time I have had to charge it. The car is an 88 though. Approx 66,000 original miles. I've owned it since it was a couple of years old.

Anything else you would like to add would be appreciated.
 

Tony

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The leak is probably at one of the fittings for the hoses or the seal for the compressor, since that is where they normally leak on systems with that kind of age.
The good new is, if it is a fitting leaking, then it should only require an o-ring.
So, evacuating, replacing the o-ring and recharging is a possibility.
The dye leak kits usually work well for those problems, unless it is leaking in the evaporator.
Then you may have to have an electronic leak detector.

If you use a dye kit, make sure you attach the leak dye label in the engine compartment, so shops will know it is there.


The best thing is to post over at ACkits.com's forum
http://www.autoacforum.com/
They will be able to line you out with what is needed exactly.
jjm is one of the guys from that forum.
 

jjm

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You could also go with one of the complete kits shown below and then you won't have to bring it to a shop.

<img src="http://www.autoacforum.com/diy/diy1.jpg">

<a href="http://www.ackits.com/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=01&Product_Code=DIY-STARTER1&Category_Code=DIY" target="_blank">DIY Starter Kit </a>

<img src="http://www.autoacforum.com/diy/diyadvance.jpg">

<a href="http://www.ackits.com/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=01&Product_Code=DIYADVANCE&Category_Code=DIY" target="_blank">Do-It-Yourself (DIY) Advance Starter Kit</a>

You're really better off buying the tools, because if you do something wrong, and the system leaks, the shop is going to bill you every time you have to bring it back. That can become very expensive - a lot more than the investment in tools - tools that can be used on other vehicles as well, any time you want.

Joe

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