Manual transmission parts

billr

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Please fill out the following to ask a question.

MAKE: Saturn
MODEL: SL2
YEAR: 1995
MILES:
ENGINE
: DOHC
DESCRIBE ISSUE.... Where would I look, on-line, for parts? Things like gears, bearings, syncros.
 

billr

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Which "all-trans" (city or web address)? There are quite a few, and I didn't see much in the way of parts listings for the first five or so that I checked...
 

nickb2

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I know these guys are way north of you, but they have a HUGE inventory. You are west coast south, I am east coast north.

They have been in business for a LONG time.

http://www.multitransmission.com/transmission_automatique_et_manuelle

If they don't have it in montreal, they probably will have it in sept iles or chicoutimi.

You could try to give them a call and see what their shipping service is like.

What do you need specifically? Synchros, thrust washers, diff pins or bearings, etc? Sometimes these can be sourced out at the weirdest places.

Depends on what you need. Do you want a complete manual overhaul kit?

Autozone sells a syncro rebuid kit for 509$. A bit stiff. Have you taken it apart and found the culprits?
E-bay has a gasket and bearing rebuild kit kit for 210$ but it does not come with the sync's or the cleats/cleavers, damn cannot seem to find the right translation for that. In french, we say clevet's.

Most often on these manuals, the diff bearings go south and the diff pin can use a good welding after high mileage use.

Just an Idea.

They resemble the cheap dodge colt and eagle talon manuals. SFK and Timkin make good bearings for this.

Here is a nice cheap kit for the s-series. Don't like the koyo bearings, but at this age of car, can't be to picky. This one comes with the syncro and bearings and gaskets. As for the gears, they are all sold separately. I really think you need to dismantel and see what you really need.


http://www.amazon.com/SATURN-5-SPEED-TRANSMISSION-REBUILD-SYNCHRO/dp/B00HIKCR2Y
 

billr

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Sorry, I didn't mean to send anybody on such a chase. I just want to get info on parts for these transmissions, I have no real need for parts. After all, my two only have 220K and 240K miles on them. It's the syncro rings I am presently interested about. In the picture, they look rather like standard brass ones, but I am told they have some kind of paper on the friction surface. Looking for better pictures.
 

nickb2

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Well, this is a first for me for sure. I have heard of carbon laced copper and sintered brass synchro's. Never heard of papered frictional synchro's. Maybe I can learn something here.

I rebuilt a yamaha seca bike with moly synchros, but have never even heard of a paper type, even for racing applications.

I did quite an extensive research on google tonight, tried every type of relation of paper/synchro options and came up with nothing.

Maybe Billr, you could educate me, I would be interested to learn more about this. I don't understand the relation with any form of paper in brass or copper, as I would see the paper disintegrating under friction heat, but nowdays, with molecular science, almost anything is possible. If ever I would see a paper lined/molded synchro, I would think it would be for a very fast degrading synchronization kit.

I did however find the english transaltion for clavette. Meaning wedge or key way.

If the "clavette's" will not allow the synchro ring to engage, most often it is a spring clip that has either came out or somehow disintegrated. It is very rare to see this.

I also found this from here. Page 8 of following PDF.

Very informative.

The production of synchronizer rings using carbon f
riction linings differs fundamentally from this.
Depending on the technology, the carbon friction li
ning is produced in a pulp process or as a
fabric and then saturated with a resin.
Figure 9: View into a pulp processing machine for t
he manufacture of carbon friction linings
Carbon friction linings produced by a pulp process
consist of a number of materials, which are
mixed into a pulp and then processed into raw paper
-like sheets
 

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nickb2

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From here, http://www.google.com/patents/US8628826#npl-citations

goes to show you learn something new everday.


Method of producing an organic and/or carbon-containing friction lining
US 8628826 B2
Abstract
A method of producing an organic friction lining includes the steps of producing a liquid friction material pulp placing a fabric into the friction material pulp drying and saturating the friction material pulp together with the fabric placed therein and removing the fabric from the dried friction material.
Images(2)




Claims(9)
The invention claimed is:
1. A method of producing a surface-structure, organic friction lining for transmissions, the friction lining improving cold shiftability, comprising the method steps of:
(a) producing a liquid friction material pulp;
(b) placing a fabric into the liquid friction material pulp;
(c) drying and saturating the liquid friction material pulp together with the fabric placed therein; and
(d) removing the fabric from the dried friction material.
2. The method according to claim 1, wherein the fabric is adjustable in regard to a thickness of fiber strands, a width of mesh, and/or a type of weave to achieve a desired surface structuring of the dried friction material.
3. The method according to claim 2, including selecting a desired fabric from a plurality of different fabrics to achieve the desired surface structuring.
4. The method according to claim 1, wherein the fabric is removed from the dried friction material to provide a finished friction lining having a friction side that includes a desired surface structure that corresponds to the fabric.
5. The method according to claim 4, wherein the finished friction lining is configured to line a transmission.
6. A method of producing a surface-structure, organic friction lining to line a transmission, the friction lining improving cold shiftability, comprising the method steps of:
(a) producing a liquid friction material pulp;
(b) placing a fabric into the liquid friction material pulp;
(c) drying and saturating the liquid friction material pulp together with the fabric placed therein; and
(d) removing the fabric from the dried friction material.
7. The method according to claim 6, wherein the fabric is adjustable in regard to a thickness of fiber strands, a width of mesh, and/or a type of weave to achieve a desired surface structuring of the dried friction material.
8. The method according to claim 7, including selecting a desired fabric from a plurality of different fabrics to achieve the desired surface structuring.
9. The method according to claim 6, wherein the fabric is removed from the dried friction material to provide a finished friction lining having a friction side that includes a desired surface structure that corresponds to the fabric.
Description
RELATED APPLICATION
This application is a U.S. national counterpart application of international application serial no. PCT/EP2009/004569 filed 24 Jun. 2009, which claims priority to German Patent Application No. 10 2008 033 540.1 filed 17 Jul. 2008.

BACKGROUND
The present invention relates to a method of producing an organic and/or carbon-containing friction lining.

Organic friction lining materials, which also include carbon-containing materials, have, as a rule, a smooth surface. To influence the frictional behavior, structured surfaces may be produced by embossing, machining, and/or various embodiments of groove geometry.

Studies carried out in connection with the invention have shown the positive influence of structured surfaces on frictional behavior, on wear, and on cold shiftability.

In known manufacturing methods, however, producing a structured surface constitutes an additional manufacturing step which, normally, is time and cost intensive.

There is therefore a need to provide a method of producing an organic friction lining which allows a friction lining having a structured surface to be produced in a technically simple manner.

SUMMARY
A friction lining having a structured friction lining surface is produced without requiring an additional manufacturing step. The friction lining produced by this method exhibits an optimized frictional behavior and an optimized cold shiftability, as well as an increased tear strength.

In one example, a fabric is placed into a liquid friction material pulp. The friction material pulp is dried and saturated together with the fabric and then the fabric is removed from the dried friction material.

It is thus possible to select and adjust the fabric in regard to its structure such that a desired surface structure can be generated. In particular, a thickness of fiber strands of the fabric, a width of mesh and/or a type of weave of the fabric may be made use of as influencing factors for this purpose.

BRIEF DESCRIPTION OF THE DRAWINGS
Further details, advantages and features of the present invention will be apparent from the description below of an exemplary embodiment with reference to the drawings, in which:

FIG. 1 shows friction material pulp with a fabric placed therein; and

FIG. 2 shows a top view of a friction lining surface of the dried friction lining, which has a structured surface in accordance with the fabric according to FIG. 1.

DETAILED DESCRIPTION
In accordance with a first method step, FIG. 1 shows a friction material pulp 1 which has a fabric 2 placed therein. The fabric 2 includes fiber strands, of which two intersecting fiber strands have been denoted by reference numerals 3 and 4 to be representative of all of the strands. The thickness of these fiber strands 3 and 4, the width of mesh, and the type of weave of the fabric 2 may be adjusted to be able to obtain a desired surface structure of the finished friction lining.

After drying and saturating the friction lining pulp 1 with the fabric 2 placed therein, the fabric 2 is removed to produce the finished friction lining, which in FIG. 2 is denoted by reference numeral 5. This finished friction lining 5 has a surface structuring 6 of its friction side which corresponds to the type and form of the fabric 2.
 

nickb2

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Having read all this, I still don't see how they make paper BRASS/COPPER synchros with organic friction fabrics. SO I guess I will investigate further. Cuz Billr is no fool.

I can see them that put into the sintering processes or the carbon lacing to bring down cost of product. Carbon is basically organic and hold well up to heat.

Since I am not some science major or engineer university type, I will take the time to educate myself.

I like it when I come about something I don't quite understand, but my man brain seems to be able to conceptualize.

Interesting stuff.

I understand the concept in brake pads and clutch linings, just not in a viscous environment. I would have thought they would defeat one another.

Too old to go back to school, so I will just learn this on my own with maybe some help from friends.;)
 

billr

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BP, where from, though, which "all-trans"? NB2, you are sure assiduous, no question about that! "Paper" is a rather vague description, there are all kinds of paper. I think "paper" just means of flt thin material made from a fiber pulp. the fiber could be wood, cotton, wool, carbon, plastic, metal, any number of combinations of materials. We used to reline motorcycle clutches with plain wood-fiber paper or thin cardboard. I gotta cut this short, I have a kitten "helping" me (baby-sitting a Christmas surprise) and he is as much trouble to keep away from the key board as my grandchildren used to be. He watches my fingers for a bit, then pounces on the keys where I am typing.
 

nickb2

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the paper ones are ok but you can use all brass they dont wear out as fast \
Yes BP, this was exactly was I thought.

Your area of expertise is highly considered here. Maybe I have installed synchros that were paper lined before, without even knowing it, or I am just used to giving credence to my parts counter guy's to get me the best stuff for my clients.

I am still not sold on the paper. I rebuilt quite a few manual tranny's in my day. I always go high end for friction parts and don't really care about the bearing quality. As long as the lubricant is high end.

I have been lucky to have good success since this is not my area of expertise.

BP, happy holidays.
 

billr

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The few syncro rings I have worked with were all brass, but that was back in the "olden days" of the 60's & '70s. Note that the syncros shown in that patent info aren't just plain rings, they are multi-piece. That could be to allow use of thinner lube, like ATF and eke out an additional billionth of an mpg for CAFE compliance, as well as help emissions. Or maybe it is just an European thing, over-engineering the simple syncros that you and I are familiar with to make the shifts a millisecond or so quicker. Do you understand that (most?) syncros are just cone-clutches?
 

nickb2

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Do you understand that (most?) syncros are just cone-clutches?
Yes Bill, I do understand this. However, with state of the art multishift 6 speed automatics, which are using these manual type shift designs, it is becoming more and more frequent to use multi layered and multi syncromesh designs.

Just to say, I think my program does not recognizes syncro, or synchro, as a valid word. They both end up with a invalid english word. Anywho.

This could be a great debate.

But this is for a 1995 saturn "S" series.

My wish Christmas for you Billr is

http://www.amazon.com/SATURN-5-SPEED-TRANSMISSION-REBUILD-SYNCHRO/dp/B00HIKCR2Y
 

nickb2

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Also, they say, NO CHINESE BEARINGS!!!!

Product Description
'91-'02 SATURN SAT1 5-SPEED MANUAL TRANSMISSION: REBUILD KIT WITH SYNCHRO RINGS*. *WITH 1-PIECE TYPE SYNCHRO RINGS. FITS '91-'02 1.9L SATURN SC1 SC2 SL SL1 SL2 SW1 SW2 MODELS SAT1 IDENTIFIERS: ALUMINUM CASE WITH 7-BOLT REAR COVER, SYNCHRO RINGS ARE BRASS 1-PIECE DESIGN. PROFESSIONAL QUALITY TRANSMISSION BEARING REBUILD KIT INCLUDES: SEALS. BEARINGS. GASKETS. SMALL PARTS KIT. SYNCHRO RINGS. INCLUDES 12 MONTH, 12,000 MILE MANUFACTURER'S WARRANTY! NO CHINESE BEARINGS. PHOTO SHOWS ACTUAL KIT COMPONENTS!
 
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