New clutch, flywheel, master and slave cylinders but won't shift when running.

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#1
MAKE: Scion
MODEL: tC
YEAR: 2006
MILES: ~120000
ENGINE: 2.4L

About six months ago I had the clutch and flywheel replaced, since then the car has run well (except it felt like the third gear synchro might be going bad--there was a slight grinding when shifting into 3rd).

Two weeks ago I drove home from work with no issues and parked the car in the garage. The next morning I started the car and it would no longer shift--it will shift if the car is off but not while it's running. Last week I replaced the master cylinder, assuming it was one of the cylinders, but no luck so today I replaced the slave cylinder and thoroughly bled the system. Still no luck.

If I put the car in gear, push in the clutch and start the car, it will move when I let off the clutch but it will not come out of gear. If the car is out of gear when started it will not shift into any gear but will grind on 3rd, 4th, 5th and reverse; it will not do anything on 1st or 2nd. Any ideas?
 

billr

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#2
"it will not do anything on 1st or 2nd."

Please clarify that: Do you mean the truck won't move at all, or you can't shift in/out of either 1st/2nd, or it doesn't misbehave (works fine)?

Check end-play on the crank, that is rarely a problem, but checking very easy to do. Is this one of those slaves that is integral to the throw-out bearing, no intermediate fork between the slave and bearing?
 
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#3
When the car is running, the car will not shift into any gear, it will grind on 3rd-5th but will not grind on 1st or 2nd.

The slave pin sits up against the throw-out bearing (no intermediate fork). What seems strange is that the throw-out bearing seems to be in the wrong position. When the car is not running (clutch depressed) the throw-out bearing can be pushed in towards the slave cylinder and then slowly moves itself back out. I'm not highly knowledge in clutch operations but I thought the slave cylinder pin was supposed to push the throw-out bearing out when the clutch was pressed.
 

nickb2

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#4
From my my experience of 22+ years, if you cannot engage the gears with engine running, but can engage them with engine off, that is most likely a pressure plate or clutch disc.

If as you state, there is a new master and a new slave, AND YOU ARE SURE there is no air. What else can it be? Check shift linkage for any slack, binding or mis-alignment.

Other than that, all I read from your post is that the clutch was changed and the flywheel replaced. Was the pressure plate replaced with the clutch?
 

billr

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#6
I gotta ask again about the fork... I have found only a little bit of info on that clutch, but what I have found all indicates that there is a fork. Maybe we are getting confused by terminology? Point is, if the slave is mounted outside of the bell-housing and has a "push-rod" going in, then there may be a way to sneak a wire in alongside the push-rod to measure how far it is actually traveling when the pedal is depressed. If that can be measured, then perhaps we can eliminate further wonder about the master/slave, hose, or air in the system. Does this have a flexible hose connecting the cylinders? If so, I would be tempted to change that too. I expect those can cause problems from the inner lining "collapsing" from a pin-hole, similar to what is often seen with brake hoses.
 
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#7
Is this your setup? How does the pedal feel? When the pedal is pressed, does the slave pin move "the fork"? ("fork" is that rust colored thing dead center of the photo.)
 

billr

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#8
Wow, that one will be easy to measure! Tell us how far it moves (in inches or mm) when pedal is depressed. Just for fun, check to see if it moves the same amount engine-running and engine-off.
 
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#9
Yes, the plate was replaced with the clutch and I am absolutely certain there is no air in the system. The lines are hard steel tubing except from the master to the fluid reservoir (and that tube appears to be okay).

The picture above is exactly what mine looks like so I guess I was wrong about what the fork is. As for how far it moves, that's the problem. The "fork" is already pushed to the right so when the clutch is pushed (it feels like how it normally does when you push down on the clutch pedal) the fork doesn't move. I can manually use my hand to push the fork to the left but when I remove my hand the fork slowly moves back to the right.
 
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#10
I would recommend that you place some sort of spacer between the slave pin and the fork. A nut or thick washer may work. Then see if your clutch works better. This sort of modification works well with a mechanical clutch linkage....with a hydraulic system like yours, success is less likely, but still worth a try.
 

billr

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#11
If that fork end is "already pushed to the right" something is mechanically wrong in there, putting a spacer between the slave and fork is not the way to go. Sorry, Dan, I strongly disagree.

Try comparing what you see in that picture to what you have, scale off the picture to get some numbers. That will only confirm that the fork is not in the proper "resting" position, of course, but easy to do and worthwhile to ensure we know the magnitude of the problem. I would also try moving the slave away a bit (leave that nicely-bled line connected!), then remove the rubber "boot" on the end of the fork; peek in there and do some visual inspection as you move the fork by hand. I would be looking for a fork that has slipped off the bearing, maybe just one side of the bearing, or a fork that has slipped off the pivot ball. I think that is on the far end of the fork here, so may be tough to see. Way down on the list would be a broken fork or broken "collar" on the bearing.
 
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#12
I removed the boot and took a picture of what's in there but am not sure what I'm looking at. I can say that the fork moves up and down and side-to-side and just doesn't (in my opinion) feel right.

 

billr

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#13
That picture isn't clear enough for me to tell anything. Can you try again, are you using a real camera, or just a phone? With a real camera, I usually have to try various combinations of lighting, flash off/on, macro, etc. to get what I want. Frankly, though, what can be seen "static" isn't going to be as good as you can see/feel while moving it. Post a picture from the same angle as in reply #7; the slave and boot can be off, but be sure the fork tip is as far right as it will go with light force. I want to get a feel for how much that fork tip is too far back.

Oh, yeah... you said you "had it done" six months ago. That's not long, have you contacted the shop that did the clutch job to see if they will resolve this?
 

jd

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#14
From what I understand, the hydraulic clutches are "self adjusting" somehow. Is the piston pin in that slave cylinder correctly seated within the cylinder? And also in the Fork?

Was this "clutch" New or Remanufactured? A friend worked at a parts house and tried to save me a few dollars by collecting a "clutch kit" (disc, pressure plate, pilot bearing and throwout bearing from "reman" sources and the thing would not fully release. I'm not sure the "reman" disc was the correct one, since it was going in a Mitsubishi pickup and the Ford logo was stamped into it. But even if it WAS the correct disc, there's a potential problem with "reman" discs: IF when the disc core was harvested from the junker, the transmission didn't come straight out but instead "hung" from the disc by the input shaft, the disc can get warped. Then your throwout travel isn't enough to fully disengage it.

We ordered a complete Kit (brand name was DYNAPAK, I still have the box, storing a Christmas wreath) from another house at about $100. Came with all the above plus a pilot alignment tool. My friend helped me swap it out and process the return, so I ended up with a parts and labor "warranty" on a DIY job.

Anyhow, ONLY NEW clutch parts for me. Aftermarket, OK, just not Rebuilt/Reman. I'll do it with a Starter, an Alternator, something easy to get at. A clutch? Nope, too much labor to take the chance.

Just realized this post didn't post. Well, that I didn't click "Post Reply." Seeing the photo, it looks a little to me like the fork is worn through where it pivots inside the bellhousing. Some of that back and gray material is grease, right? See if you can sample a little and try it with a magnet. If it sticks, maybe it means the pivot pocket in the fork is worn thin or through.

Surprised this tC needed a clutch. Import clutches seem to last a VERY long time.
 
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#15
Things look pretty normal to me in that photo. Pivot post is lodged in proper spot on "fork". Retainer spring is holding it there. Some pivot post lube can be seen.
Try this...with boot removed from bellhousing (done), move fork as far away from slave as you can. If you can move the fork far enough to touch the edge of bellhousing hole (that would be the edge closest to the driver's side of the car), your problem will be with the parts inside the bellhousing, and the transmission will have to be removed for repairs. BUT...if the fork will only move to a midpoint in the hole when pushed towards the driver's side, you may have a problem with the hydraulics / pedal.
Essentially, I am asking you to do the same thing that Bill had asked.