NO START - 2000 Honda Civic LX

63vette

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#1
I have been pulling my hair out with a 2000 Honda Civic LX (D16Y7) with 186K miles and 4 doors (yes, there is a reason to mention the number of doors!). There has been some number of people working on this before it came to me but I won't go into the gory details other than someone had checked for codes and cleared them without writing anything down or remembering what they were :>(.

Here's what I know:
- Fuel pressure at the filter is good (40 to 45 #'s). Also I can smell fuel after cranking and the plugs were damp.
- It had no spark - it came to me with a new coil, new(er) plugs, cap & rotor. The resistance of the plug wires was good. I tested for voltage at the coil and at the ICM and that was good. I did resistance tests on the terminals of the ICM compared to a known good module and it failed. I replaced the ICM and it now has spark at all of the plugs but still won't start - although it at least "kicks" a little now.
- The age/mileage of the timing belt is unknown but the distributor rotor turns and the rotor is pointed to #1 cylinder with the crank at TDC.
- I had a scan tool (AutoEnginuity with enhanced Honda) hooked up after replacing the ICM and it generated a P1382 - CMP sensor A - no signal. I did the resistance checks for all three sensors in the distributor both at the distributor connector and at the PCM connector. They were all 355 to 357 ohms and none were shorted to ground. According to AllData (which I haven't been too impressed with the inaccuracy of the connector pinouts through this process), they should be between 300 to 700 ohms. If all of the sensors and wiring test good, by default, the ECM should be the issue - so I replaced it with a good, used unit. No change.
- So I tried to get to and get the connector apart for the crank position sensor (CKF) and gave up and went to the connector at the PCM and tested it. I have seen different values suggested for the resistance of the CPS (300 to 500 ohms) and this one tested at 2. 1K ohms. I assume it is bad but don't want to spend the money on a new one and put in the time to replace it (a PITA) unless someone can tell me if that is pretty definitely the problem.

My questions:
- Does 2. 1K ohms confirm that the CPS is bad?
- Do CPS's go bad very often on Honda's?
- Will a bad CPS still allow the ignition system to appear to work but throw off the timing so that it won't/can't start?


Thank you in advance for sharing your experience. . . Allen

Oh, I almost forgot. My parts sources show two different CPS's for this car - one for a 2 door (Texas Instruments) and one for a 4 door (Nippondenso). That's why I specified that this is a 4 door early on.
 

dave_X86

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#2
I would suggest that you disconnect the CPS sensor at the CPS and take the measurement looking into the device. If the CPS is resistance is greater than what's specified then the winding in the inductors in the CPS are bad. The 1k value may be parallel resistance when connected to the PCM. I recently worked on an Infiniti that had a P1335 failure and it's inductive pickup was destroyed when a timing belt failed. The CPS can keep a vehicle from starting, it can also make them run rough.
 

63vette

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#3
Thank you Dave BUT I had unplugged the connector from the ECM and tested at the connector. Granted, there can be some nominal additional resistance through the wire harness but it should be insignificant. The connector at the end of the lead for the CPS is a bear to get to and get apart.

The second part to this is that there hasn't been any consistency to specs that I have found as to what the resistance should be. One source indicagted 300 - 500 ohms. Another indicated up to 1000 ohms. I'm hoping someone here has more reliable information. Thanks again for the reply. . .
 

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Can you put a voltmeter across these sensors while cranking to see if they put out any signal at all, maybe in the 1 volt AC range, hopefully even stronger. Without a scope this is your next step, not sure a digital meter would be your best choice here unless in has a min / max setting, do you have an analog meter on hand?
 

63vette

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Thanks 2POINT. I do have a scope and both scoped the sensor input at the ECM and used the scopes DMM function to record MIN & MAX voltages. The waveform looked good and the MAX voltage in DMM mode was 2. 347 with a MAX-MIN or 2. 313.

It would appear that the CPS is not the problem - right? And since it has spark, then problem would have to be in the fuel system or the timing (ignition and/or valve). I had done a compression check (cold - obviously) and all of the cylinders were 150#'s except for #3 which was about 135#'s. I wouldn't think the compression would be that decent if the timing belt had slipped a tooth - or if that is even a possibility. I've run across lots of engines with timing chains that have slipped a tooth (or more) but not a timing belt. When they go, don't they usually just totally fail (as in break or loose a number of "teeth")?

As far as the fuel is concerned, like I said in my original post, it has good fuel pressure and I can smell fuel both under the hood and out the exhaust after cranking the engine. It is still "kicking" some when cranking but it seems like the timing is off. I tried advancing and retarding the ignition timing within the mechanical limits of the distributor holddown bolts and that hasn't made a noticeable change - although it does seem to kick a little more with the timing advanced.

I'm still stumped :>(
 

2POINTautO

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Are you able to post some pics or create a collection at a photo sharing site and make links to that. Its been awhile since I have seen someone on the web that had a scope. Have you built your own pressure transducer from a MAP or EVAP Pressure Sensor? I learned a new way of checking timing belt slips and distributor improper indexing and false triggering of the ignition based on a problem with the CKP such as a broken tooth on the flywheel etc.

If you can post pics some how can you also scope all the distributor outputs, now lets assume all the sensors have outputs, is the amplitude high enough for the ECU to interpret them, this is why you must attempt a jump start to try to get that last little bit of power for cranking the engine. With a magnetic pick up, the faster the RPM, the higher the amplitude signal pk to pk.

Have you tried to dead head the fuel pressure by clamping off the return hose to the fuel tank. Do you have an Amp Clamp to go with your scope also please. Is your scope a dual trace and what is it anyways sir.
 

63vette

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#7
I'm not sure of what pics you are suggesting that I post. My scope is a dual trace - it's a KAL Equip/Tektronix - no model number, just KAL Scope. Like a lot of my equipment and many tools, I bought it on Ebay (gotta love Ebay!). I need to refresh my memory on all of it's capabilities since I haven't used it (until yesterday) for over a year.

No, it doesn't have a pressure transducer but I have a MAC master fuel pressure kit and have not removed the fuel pressure gauge from the filter sinced I hooked it up. The only concern I have about the fuel system is that when I tested the MAP sensor (with the scan tool), the voltage seemed high with key on, engine off. According to what I've found, the voltage at idle should be . 5 to 1. 5V and it was indicating 2. 83V which is in the hard accel range.

Today I bit the bullet and pulled the valve and upper timing belt covers to check the valve timing and the timing belt. The timing belt has not slipped although it appears to be way too loose. There is about an inch of deflection just in the short distance between the water pump and cam pulleys. As best as I can tell, there is about 5 degrees (give or take 1) of play at the crank when moving it back and forth until there is tension on the belt. The timing belt is going to need to be replaced SOON but not until I figure out why it's not running.

Thanks to your suggestion, I will scope/measure the voltages of the 3 sensors in the distributor (TDC, CKP & CYP). Actually, I have been misrepresenting the crank sensor at the front of the engine as a CKP but Honda calls it a CKF (crank fluctuation sensor). I have had a new (reman) distributor (the only way to service the sensors in the distributor) sitting here that I have been reluctant to install since the resistance readings for those sensors indicated that they were OK. UGH!
 

2POINTautO

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#8
The MAP must be extremely close to 1 volt, .5 to 1.5 is way too far off. I mentioned a MAP sensor to make a home made pressure transducer to use with your scope, your fuel pressure guage will not come into this part of the conversation, sorry if you were not aware of making a home made xducer. Once again Sir, are you able to take a picture of your scope, a close up in focus with minimum glare to a photo sharing website or use the button directly under the BOLD button just above this reply box (while making a reply).

Your timing belt is way too loose but you know that, it may be causing the ignition to be after TDC but you did mention moving the distributor trying to go even further advanced. With the correct equipment on a dual trace you can see spark timing along with mechanical timing of the piston and valves, then with a little measuring you can see if anything is out of time either mechanical or electrical.

Where exactly is this fourth sensor (pickup) located please. I am guessing you dont have an Amp Clamp either, that has to be bought for accuracy.
 

63vette

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#9
2Point, thanks again for your support. I have been busy with other jobs since we last exchanged posts. I have made a little more progress and will update:
After cranking the engine to look at distributor (TDC, CKP & CYP) sensors and the crankshaft fluctuation sensor (CKF) voltages and waveforms, I pulled the spark plugs and they were (again) wet & black. I used my borescope to look inside the cylinders (as best I could) and saw that there is quite a bit of carbon build-up on top of the pistons. I assume that the unburnt fuel is dissolving some of the carbon and that's where the black is coming from on the plug electrodes.

Back to the MAP. I checked the voltage again and key on engine off (whether static or cranking) the voltage off the MAP is 2.83V. Would that high of a voltage from the MAP cause the ECM to signal the injectors for too much pulse width (flood the engine)? After cleaning off the plugs and blowing air into the cylinders to purge the fuel, I unplugged the MAP and cranked it over. It did seem to want to start better than before - except that the ignition timing is way off. Would I be wrong in assuming that a MAP sensor won't keep it from starting?

I hooked up a remote starter button to check the ignition timing with a light. The timing is WAY retarded - I'm guessing about 20 to 30 degrees ATDC - with the distributor fully advanced in the adjustment range. As would be expected, there is some popping out the exhaust. That doesn't make sense unless the ECM isn't getting the proper signal from one or more of the sensors and defaulting to way too much retard. Would the ECM default to such a ridiculous timing spec if one or more of the sensors weren't usable?

You had mentioned a way to check distributor indexing with a dual trace scope. Can you tell me which two components I would use? Similar to the issues I have below with the ignition related components, I don't know which two components I should be scoping to compare wave form timing. The thing is, the distributor will only mate up to the cam in one position. So unlike a distributor shaft with a gear that can be located in as many positions as it has teeth, the disributor mounting has no adjustment. When I have the engine at TDC, the back side of the rotor contact (which is pretty wide) is at or just past the contact in the distributor cap.

Scoping the sensors in the distributor while cranking, I got the following voltages:
CKP (crank posion): 3.93 volts P-P - nice wave form
CYP (cylinder position): 3.86 volts P-P - also a nice wave form
TDC: 2.8 volts P-P - wave form more spikey and much more infrequent pulses
The problem is that I don't know and can't find information on what the wave forms or voltages should be. I would think that the voltages and waveforms for the CKP and the CYP sensors are what they should be but I don't know if the TDC sensor is working as it should or not. - maybe too low for the ECM to use?
I also did A-B resistance tests between the current distributor and the new (reman) unit that I have. The resistances are all very similar between the two. I also scoped the CKF (crank fluctuation sender) at the ECM connector and it also looks good - 50 Hz (cranking) with a max of 5.3 volts and a minimum of about 6 volts with a nice wave form.

Currently, my digital camera has a bad battery and is unusable so I can't post any pics of wave forms. Also, the fourth sensor (CKF) is mounted behind the lower timing cover and reads off of the crank gear. Thanks for the suggestion to use a MAP sensor for testing pressure. Do you have more details on how to do that? Also, you are right, I don't have an amp clamp. I will start looking for one on Ebay.

Again, thanks in advance for any assistance and/or suggestions as to how I can get this Honda running and out of my shop!
 

2POINTautO

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#10
Making a MAP sensor pressure transducer would have to be looked up in Google maybe, I cannot give you a link to a members only site to see one. The MAP has a ground, a 5V Reference power signal from the ECU and a return signal to the ECU for monitoring the vacuum reading. You tap into the 5VRef on the car with an adaptor that you have to make to get a 5VRef and ground from any sensor that you want to make an adaptor from OR make your own voltage regulator to supply 5VDC and ground. Chrysler does not use 5V on their older systems so you can just use a typical 9 volt little square battery that you put in a portable radio and build one from a Chry MAP. Older Honda put the MAP on the firewall with a rubber vacuum hose connected to the intake manifold, this style is what you want, even GM is good also. You want one with a rubber hose so you can adapt the rubber hose to your compression tester hose (remove the schrader valve) and screw it right into your spark plug hole and you are off. The signal wire back to the ECU is where you tap in with your scope to see how many volts is coming out of the sensor based on vacuum. On a dual trace scope you use this signal to look at mechanical timing and use the other trace to look at spark from the same cylinder, that spark plug is hooked up to the plug wire and grounded to the head externally, a spark tester is better though, it will stress test the ignition system above 15KV I would say.

The spark happens during the build up of pressure in the cylinder just prior to TDC, you can see the pressure increase via your MAP transducer. You capture two pressure events in your screen. This represents 720 degrees of crankshaft rotation (one complete four cycle event). After TDC comes the POWER stroke and loss of pressure in the cylinder (no spark plug installed to fire the cyl), just prior to BDC the exhaust valve starts to open then comes the exhaust stroke with the amount of backpressure visible as a slight increase in pressure that continues during the exhaust stroke. You can calculate when the exhaust valve opens, if it is aprox 30 to 45 degrees prior to BDC of crankshaft rotation then mechanical timing is good. Going back to the spark again, if the spark happened in the rise of the compression rise of pressure then ignition timing is good and you know that spark actually happened, but you dont know how strong it is yet unless you used a spark tester instead of a regular spark plug, which is recommended, you have just now knocked out a ton of diagnostics and dont even know what you are missing. No more pulling timing covers to visually check timing marks, a spark tester should be good enough to say that the ignition can produce 15KV+ so the ignition system should be good to go. The exhaust is not clogged (heavily) so that is ruled out as a cause of a no start or hard to start. If the spark happens at the wrong time then this will point the way to quicker diagnostics as to why, and it wont be due to mechanical timing (jumped timing belt) based on the 30 to 45 degrees of exhaust valve BBDC opening viewed on the scope. You also do not need a timing light anymore as you can see timing on the scope also in relation to the pressure rise BTDC.

I think the disconnected MAP will keep the engine from starting, I do not know if it goes into limp mode or not. A timing sensor could be skewing the timing of the ignition firing but you need a library of good signals to see if your signals are good or bad. Actually the distributor can go in 180 out, it has been done many times, although it does take a little force. I am sure that you are experienced enough to know the difference though. The rotor should be before the tip in the cap for proper timing, are you sure the plug wires are properly indexed with #1 towards the back of the engine bay OR lower back corner of the distributor cap, depending on engine. Do you use an inductive pickup wire to hook onto #1 spark plug wire to get the trigger signal for spark timing with your scope and it paints the spark pattern on the scope based on this inductive scope lead?

Dealing with your scope, do you know what the word, ALIAS, means, ALIASING. CKP, many P-P signals per engine revolution, maybe 28 P-P, CYP, four P-P signals per engine revolutions, TDC, one P-P signal per engine revolution. OR do I have CYP and TDC backwards. Does the TDC waveform have two taller and three shorter P-P signals in sequence??? The CKF should be good also. Please straighten me out on these other two though, I am working off of the top of my head here, TDC and CYP.

Dont forget to check and ask for prices on amp clamps from AESwave, I think. You will need to know what type of connector to get to fit into your scope, RCA, banana, BNC or whatever. I will see if I can find some waveforms online.

Is your MAP mounted right on the throttle body?
 

2POINTautO

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#11
OK, I think anything above 1.5 volts cranking will be ok for the computer to see the signal strength, I think the one sensor is 24 pulses not 28. A good tech can see which cylinder is misfiring by looking at these pulses, a dead cylinder that is. Use the 50ms scale on your scope, you should see two pulses from the sensor that only fires once per revolution.

I was incorrect about the two taller pulses and three shorter pulses in sequence, that is a distributor that only has two sensors built into it, not three like yours.

I would like to hear a more indepth explaination of the signal that you think may be bad.

Here you go, I think you are having a problem with photo number 4???

http://www.forparts.com/techtips/honda_IChondaignitionsystems.asp

MAP tool,

http://www.autofixworld.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=254&Itemid=85&ed=7

There is a link at the beginning of the story to the previous months article, so start with the previous months story then read this one. The signal on the scope is pretty ugly, I would like to see one of just one cylinder like we have been talking about.

This is from a friends site, look at the Story of the Month, Feb and Jan, you have to do some work yourself to build the purple lines and you need to be able to post your scope pattern online and then do some work in PowerPoint. It also may be possible to figure this all out right on your scope screen depending on how many lines are visible in your grid pattern, dealing with screen time vs volts grid markings. I did not understand his stories at first but now I get it completely. If you want to chat about it here, I can help.

Forgot his link,

http://www.autotechonwheels.com/
 
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#12
Have you checked the fuel? Maybe someone put something in it or it's bad for some other reason. Just a thought.
Good luck.
 

63vette

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#13
IT IS fixed!

Dan R, thank you for your thought.

2Point, thanks again for the info and sharing your knowledge & experience. I was thinking about this last night and this morning before going to work. I triple checked (at least) that the timing belt hasn't slipped and rechecked the rotor position to the #1 cap contact and it still looked like the rotor contact was just past the cap contact. I decided (with prodding from my wife) that if tghe problem wasn't mechanical, it HAD to be the distributor (with the 3 sensors) or the ECM. Since I had already tried another ECM, I finally broke down and installed the new (reman) distributor that I have had on-hand for almost 2 weeks but didn't want to install it until I KNEW that was the problem. I knew that I couldn't return it if it had been installed and I didn't want to be stuck with it (as I know am with the ICM and the ECM) or have to charge my customer for something that they didn't need.

Anyway, I installed the distributor, cranked it over and it fired right up! fixed fixed fixed

2Point, since my customer is anxious to get her car back tomorrow, I won't be able to check out the info that you provided - at least not on that car. I will use others as "guinea pigs" to get better acquainted with my scope.

It started with the MAP sensor still unplugged. Tomorrow I will experiment with the MAP plugged & unplugged and see if the voltage is still so high with the engine running (I can't imagine that it won't be). and, yes, the MAP is mounted on the throttle body. After I read the information that you provided and digest it, I'll message you through this site - if that's OK. Thank you again so much for everything...Allen
 

2POINTautO

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Anytime, I would have liked to hear about the one scope trace that you had a question on, thanks for posting the fix.
 

63vette

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#15
I started the car yesterday with the MAP still unplugged. The CEL was on so I pulled the codes - P0108 MAP; P0113 IAT; & P0118 CTS all circuit high input. They must have been set the day before when I started it. I plugged the MAP sensor back in and let it warm up so I could set the timing. I left my AutoXray scan tool on it (it so much faster to communicate with a vehicle (vs. the AutoEnginuity on my laptop) even though it only reads the generic OBDII data). I cleared the codes and monitored the data for the sensors above and everything looked good - and no codes! Even the MAP was functioning correctly. I set the timing to spec with my timing light and also confirmed that the ECM was seeing the timing at 12 BTDC. I gave the car back to my customer with the stipulation that as sson as she could put aside the money for the timing belt (& tensioner & water pump), that she get the car back to me to get that done. With 180K and knowing that the belt is loose, she is living on borrowed time before she is looking at a replacing the engine. ouch