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Oil in the coolant and coolant in the oil
- Thread starter wolfsmane
- Start date
Also, should I be trying to clean the gunk that is visible with degreaser and a brush or anything like that? Or just replace all of the gaskets and run engine cleaner, kerosene, etc through it after it is together?
The radiator, should probably be replaced, right? Since oil probably got in there. Or can some degreaser be added, run through for a while and then flushed and refilled with antifreeze?
The radiator, should probably be replaced, right? Since oil probably got in there. Or can some degreaser be added, run through for a while and then flushed and refilled with antifreeze?
No, I would not replace the radiator. Just flush it along with the engine and rest of cooling system once everything is back together.
I also would be tempted to leave the heads alone, unless there was some other known problem with the valves. I would pressurize each cylinder, like in a leak-down test, and look for head gasket leaks along the edge inside the valve valley. If none, then leave the heads alone. Try to use 90-100 psi air, to really tease it. That means you have to carefully get the piston on TDC of the combustion stroke.
I also would be tempted to leave the heads alone, unless there was some other known problem with the valves. I would pressurize each cylinder, like in a leak-down test, and look for head gasket leaks along the edge inside the valve valley. If none, then leave the heads alone. Try to use 90-100 psi air, to really tease it. That means you have to carefully get the piston on TDC of the combustion stroke.
I would have them do the heads to be sure. You'll have a good engine after that.Thanks for the replies, it is appreciated.
I am not skilled enough to know what the machine shop does to heads, but after removing, should I take them there or just replace the gaskets and bolts?
Bill you need to read the earlier stuff.No, I would not replace the radiator. Just flush it along with the engine and rest of cooling system once everything is back together.
I also would be tempted to leave the heads alone, unless there was some other known problem with the valves. I would pressurize each cylinder, like in a leak-down test, and look for head gasket leaks along the edge inside the valve valley. If none, then leave the heads alone. Try to use 90-100 psi air, to really tease it. That means you have to carefully get the piston on TDC of the combustion stroke.
Replace the radiator. The stuff you need to get the gunk out is hard on the core.Also, should I be trying to clean the gunk that is visible with degreaser and a brush or anything like that? Or just replace all of the gaskets and run engine cleaner, kerosene, etc through it after it is together?
The radiator, should probably be replaced, right? Since oil probably got in there. Or can some degreaser be added, run through for a while and then flushed and refilled with antifreeze?
I have been reading all the above, and just browsed again. Although I sometimes misread (or forget), I don't see anything conclusive to indicate there is any problem with the heads/gaskets. Sure, the engine is cruddy, but I have seen much worse!
I agree that bearings (or other parts) may have been damaged-beyond-use by coolant in the oil, but there is no way to really tell without a complete tear-down of the engine.
This is a 22-year-old car. I don't know where the OP is located, but in my high-priced no-rust area (SF Bay Area) this is a $4000-5000 car. Parts and machine-shop work to make this engine "like new" could be $2000 or more, even with most of the work being DIY. I am suggesting that the OP take a risk and do the minimal repair, just seal up the manifold after checking for leakage at head gaskets.
I also feel pulling heads on an old engine and replacing head gaskets "just in case" may do more harm than good.
I agree that bearings (or other parts) may have been damaged-beyond-use by coolant in the oil, but there is no way to really tell without a complete tear-down of the engine.
This is a 22-year-old car. I don't know where the OP is located, but in my high-priced no-rust area (SF Bay Area) this is a $4000-5000 car. Parts and machine-shop work to make this engine "like new" could be $2000 or more, even with most of the work being DIY. I am suggesting that the OP take a risk and do the minimal repair, just seal up the manifold after checking for leakage at head gaskets.
I also feel pulling heads on an old engine and replacing head gaskets "just in case" may do more harm than good.
I have been reading all the above, and just browsed again. Although I sometimes misread (or forget), I don't see anything conclusive to indicate there is any problem with the heads/gaskets. Sure, the engine is cruddy, but I have seen much worse!
I agree that bearings (or other parts) may have been damaged-beyond-use by coolant in the oil, but there is no way to really tell without a complete tear-down of the engine.
This is a 22-year-old car. I don't know where the OP is located, but in my high-priced no-rust area (SF Bay Area) this is a $4000-5000 car. Parts and machine-shop work to make this engine "like new" could be $2000 or more, even with most of the work being DIY. I am suggesting that the OP take a risk and do the minimal repair, just seal up the manifold after checking for leakage at head gaskets.
I also feel pulling heads on an old engine and replacing head gaskets "just in case" may do more harm than good.
Looking at the intake gaskets and there isn't any signs of failure, that is why they are suggesting that the culprit to my oil/water mixing is the head gaskets.
I don't understand how pulling the heads to replace the gaskets would be harmful?
Also, I am in the S.E. U.S.. for what it's worth.
The problem is if there are oil clumps in the system and one gets into an oil gallery and plugs it up then the bearing(s) will starve and all that work will be for nothing. I always suggest replacing the engine and radiator when oil and dex get mixed.
In the pictures, the manifold gaskets looks ruined, but that is to be expected when a manifold is removed. It certainly isn't obvious to me that the gaskets were good before removal! I don't see any indication of leaking along the head/block lines, but still suggest a pressure check to see if any obvious leak shows there.
There are several risks to changing a head gasket. The head screws may be rusted in place, risking damage to the block threads, whether a screw breaks and you have to dig it out, or just galling of the rough threads. When the screws are removed and clamping forces are removed, strains in the head/block from repeated heat/pressure cycles can warp the head block surfaces such that they have trouble mating again when a new gasket is installed. There is even a slight risk of getting a slightly wrong gasket that looks OK, but doesn't work. I say "slightly", but it has happened twice to me over a 60-year period, and both times coolant leaked into the cylinders...
Have you drained and inspected the old oil yet? Are there any clumps or long streamers in it, or is it just cloudy/frothy? Was there any obvious free water under the oil?
OP, it has to be your call, Twice it has been suggested that the engine and cooling system components be scrapped and replaced. That would certainly fix the current problem, but would be costly. I am suggesting a riskier but maybe more practical alternative.
Last comment: Is that manifold aluminum? Maybe there is porosity in it that caused this, no problem with gaskets at all.
There are several risks to changing a head gasket. The head screws may be rusted in place, risking damage to the block threads, whether a screw breaks and you have to dig it out, or just galling of the rough threads. When the screws are removed and clamping forces are removed, strains in the head/block from repeated heat/pressure cycles can warp the head block surfaces such that they have trouble mating again when a new gasket is installed. There is even a slight risk of getting a slightly wrong gasket that looks OK, but doesn't work. I say "slightly", but it has happened twice to me over a 60-year period, and both times coolant leaked into the cylinders...
Have you drained and inspected the old oil yet? Are there any clumps or long streamers in it, or is it just cloudy/frothy? Was there any obvious free water under the oil?
OP, it has to be your call, Twice it has been suggested that the engine and cooling system components be scrapped and replaced. That would certainly fix the current problem, but would be costly. I am suggesting a riskier but maybe more practical alternative.
Last comment: Is that manifold aluminum? Maybe there is porosity in it that caused this, no problem with gaskets at all.
Have not drained the oil yet. I was waiting to find out about the blown gaskets before proceeding.
The car is a beater, going to work, store, etc type of car. I would hate to just change the intake gaskets hoping that this would be the problem only to find out that it was indeed the head gaskets. As far as swapping motors, that is above my paygrade and tool capability.
The manifold does seem to be aluminum. I do understand that it has to be my call and will be ok if I try to fix it and it fails again. It will be a learning experience.
The leak down test, that can be performed with the intake off of the engine? I will try to find a gauge to do that with.
Would looking into the cylinders through the spark plug hole with a tiny camera/endoscope tell me if it is the head gasket? I already have a camera.
We are currently getting rain here for the next couple of days and I am doing this in the driveway, so it will be a minute before I can do anything.
The car is a beater, going to work, store, etc type of car. I would hate to just change the intake gaskets hoping that this would be the problem only to find out that it was indeed the head gaskets. As far as swapping motors, that is above my paygrade and tool capability.
The manifold does seem to be aluminum. I do understand that it has to be my call and will be ok if I try to fix it and it fails again. It will be a learning experience.
The leak down test, that can be performed with the intake off of the engine? I will try to find a gauge to do that with.
Would looking into the cylinders through the spark plug hole with a tiny camera/endoscope tell me if it is the head gasket? I already have a camera.
We are currently getting rain here for the next couple of days and I am doing this in the driveway, so it will be a minute before I can do anything.
I doubt looking onto the cylinders with a scope is going to tell you much about the head gaskets.
You don't need a gauge to check with air in the cylinders, just an air compressor and a fitting to adapt an air hose to a 14mm spark-plug hole. An adapter like that can probably be found at your FLAPS. However, as I think about it more, checking for leak from the cylinder to valve-valley isn't conclusive. You would also have to block all the coolant ports in the head and pressurize the coolant jacket; see if there are leaks into the valve-valley from that, too. That takes a lot more "adapting" to accomplish. If I found no leaks from cylinder to valley, then I would trust the gasket is OK at the coolant passages... and throw in some Bar's Leak when the engine is back in operation.
You don't need a gauge to check with air in the cylinders, just an air compressor and a fitting to adapt an air hose to a 14mm spark-plug hole. An adapter like that can probably be found at your FLAPS. However, as I think about it more, checking for leak from the cylinder to valve-valley isn't conclusive. You would also have to block all the coolant ports in the head and pressurize the coolant jacket; see if there are leaks into the valve-valley from that, too. That takes a lot more "adapting" to accomplish. If I found no leaks from cylinder to valley, then I would trust the gasket is OK at the coolant passages... and throw in some Bar's Leak when the engine is back in operation.
I doubt looking onto the cylinders with a scope is going to tell you much about the head gaskets.
You don't need a gauge to check with air in the cylinders, just an air compressor and a fitting to adapt an air hose to a 14mm spark-plug hole. An adapter like that can probably be found at your FLAPS. However, as I think about it more, checking for leak from the cylinder to valve-valley isn't conclusive. You would also have to block all the coolant ports in the head and pressurize the coolant jacket; see if there are leaks into the valve-valley from that, too. That takes a lot more "adapting" to accomplish. If I found no leaks from cylinder to valley, then I would trust the gasket is OK at the coolant passages... and throw in some Bar's Leak when the engine is back in operation.
Understood and thanks
The lit to pressurize the head to check for leaks is not available, already rent out, at my local part store. Small town life, LOL.
So, I did a stupid thing. The car was with my daughter and her BF in another state. He was the one who found the issue and he is the one who told me oil in the water, water in the oil. I stupidly believed him and never checked the dipstick for signs of water, just saw the oil in the overflow tank and under the radiator cap.
I just check the dipstick and it is nearly perfectly clean. Slightly dirty from being due for an oil change, but NO WATER/dexcool in the oil!
I peeled the intake gaskets off of the head and inspected closer and found where the gasket was missing in a couple of spots.
I have include a couple of pictures that show the good area on the good gasket, marked in GREEN. And a couple of areas on the 2nd gasket where the gasket is missing, marked in RED.
I also included a 3rd picture that is showing a port that is purposefully blocked off, circled in PURPLE. Why is that port blocked off? Also, the piece circled in BLUE, what is that?
So, I am believing that it is, in fact, the intake gasket was bad allowing oil in the cooling system. Am I correct?
So, I did a stupid thing. The car was with my daughter and her BF in another state. He was the one who found the issue and he is the one who told me oil in the water, water in the oil. I stupidly believed him and never checked the dipstick for signs of water, just saw the oil in the overflow tank and under the radiator cap.
I just check the dipstick and it is nearly perfectly clean. Slightly dirty from being due for an oil change, but NO WATER/dexcool in the oil!
I peeled the intake gaskets off of the head and inspected closer and found where the gasket was missing in a couple of spots.
I have include a couple of pictures that show the good area on the good gasket, marked in GREEN. And a couple of areas on the 2nd gasket where the gasket is missing, marked in RED.
I also included a 3rd picture that is showing a port that is purposefully blocked off, circled in PURPLE. Why is that port blocked off? Also, the piece circled in BLUE, what is that?
So, I am believing that it is, in fact, the intake gasket was bad allowing oil in the cooling system. Am I correct?
Pictures?The lit to pressurize the head to check for leaks is not available, already rent out, at my local part store. Small town life, LOL.
So, I did a stupid thing. The car was with my daughter and her BF in another state. He was the one who found the issue and he is the one who told me oil in the water, water in the oil. I stupidly believed him and never checked the dipstick for signs of water, just saw the oil in the overflow tank and under the radiator cap.
I just check the dipstick and it is nearly perfectly clean. Slightly dirty from being due for an oil change, but NO WATER/dexcool in the oil!
I peeled the intake gaskets off of the head and inspected closer and found where the gasket was missing in a couple of spots.
I have include a couple of pictures that show the good area on the good gasket, marked in GREEN. And a couple of areas on the 2nd gasket where the gasket is missing, marked in RED.
I also included a 3rd picture that is showing a port that is purposefully blocked off, circled in PURPLE. Why is that port blocked off? Also, the piece circled in BLUE, what is that?
So, I am believing that it is, in fact, the intake gasket was bad allowing oil in the cooling system. Am I correct?